Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[django37]

Silverrudder is a yearly singlehanded race round the Island Fyn in Denmark, 140 nm. In 2014 a light weater race. After 10 hours beating against 3 - 5 knots of wind and with a ½ knot of current against us less that 1 mile separated the Lagoon 380 and the Catana 47

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Last year, when deciding whether to buy a monohull or something else, we chartered a Lagoon 39 to see whether it would be "fun to sail". Well, it wasn't, so we went with the monohull.

I started feeling bad about dissing the Lagoon

So, I will qualify my opinion by adding that it was a charter boat with worn out sails and poorly functioning rigging. I'm sure it would have been more fun to sail if it had been properly equipped for that. I think most people just motored around with them.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I asked them about this, because in a fast cat 38 degrees apparent is barely upwind at all. (Extreme racing boats sail tighter angles than this downwind) He said they had originally asked for a very deep cut headsail for reaching. I believe they have a new, flatter headsail now, and point higher.

They more recently posted a track where they were tacking through about 90degrees. They did this using only the mainsail, so basically by slowing down.

Hmmm, we have baggy 10 year old Hydranet sails (unfortunately the cloth is still in great condition so no point in replacing anytime soon). Our upwind AWA is 34-38 degrees and that’s to maintain enough speed to avoid atrocious leeway. That translates to 100-120 degree tacks, depending mostly on wind strength. We will slow down, but usually speed up, to improve VMG.

Even with the sails we’ve got we really romp once we’re powered up. Light upwind is where the self-tacking jib shows it’s short comings.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Cool. Last year, when deciding whether to buy a monohull or something else, we chartered a Lagoon 39 to see whether it would be "fun to sail". Well, it wasn't, so we went with the monohull.

Yep, not all boats are created equal, like renting a Truck to see if you like driving

Back then I thought multihulls = Lagoon (and similar ones). Now, luckily, I've realized there are quite a few performance multihulls that might be perfect "dreamboats", somewhere down the road.

There are many many multis out there that are designed to sail.

[chrisr]

our cat (40' tasman / 7.5mt) still very much a cruising boat but sails MUCH better than some. even with in-mast furling main (ie no battens) we can do 35deg AWA in flat water

of course pointing is only half the battle...leeway is enormous

but why worry ? been there / done that. if we wanted to sail to windward we'd still be in one of the numerous racing monos we've had over the years

we don't bother unfurling a sail unless AWA is > 40deg on the heading we want to go.

someone asked me a while ago 'what is the boat like to tack ?'...i said 'i don't know...never done it'

as the man said "Gentlemen don't cruise to windward". i'm certainly no gentleman, but don't do it either.

cheers,

[Tupaia]

Suggest that those interested in this subject read this excellent article "Considerations for Seaworthyness" by John Shuttleworth.

Considerations for Seaworthiness

There is a specific section on "Windward Ability" and other discussions on aerodynamics and hydrodymanics of the boat and the rig.

It will highlight the reasons that heavy boxy catamarans with keels have "really bad tacking angles" or more specifically why they don't sail to windward very well and have large engines to enable them to motor into the wind.

It is certainly possible to a have a very comfortable cruising catamaran that outperforms all but the most radical race boats on all points of sail. They are expensive and complicated to build and not readily available off the shelf.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yep, not all boats are created equal, like renting a Truck to see if you like driving

I like driving. I thought of it more like renting a SUV to see if I like driving that as well.

There are many many multis out there that are designed to sail.

Yes, and that's great! Where we were heading, though, they had just Lagoons and Balis as charter boats, so a bit more difficult to find something else.

That said, can anyone help me with a list of currently manufactured performance oriented catamarans? I'll go through the Düsseldorf list myself and see what I find.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

That said, can anyone help me with a list of currently manufactured performance oriented catamarans? I'll go through the Düsseldorf list myself and see what I find.

There are the ones I found.

Catana
Broadblue Catamarans / Rapier models (?)
Discovery Yachts Group / Bluewater (?)
Gunboat
NEEL (?)
Outremer
Dragonfly

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

There are the ones I found.

Catana
Broadblue Catamarans / Rapier models (?)
Discovery Yachts Group / Bluewater (?)
Gunboat
NEEL (?)
Outremer
Dragonfly

Sailing catamarans - Tournier-Marine
Dazcat Catamarans| Catamarans For Sale | Dazcat D995 | Dazcat D1195 | Dazcat D1495
HH Catamarans
https://www.cata-ballotta.com
https://www.mcconaghyboats.com/multihulls
Marsaudon Composites - Chantier Naval - Lorient

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

It is certainly possible to a have a very comfortable cruising catamaran that outperforms all but the most radical race boats on all points of sail. They are expensive and complicated to build and not readily available off the shelf.

You forgot to mention the tradeoff between performance and safety in catamarans. A catamaran which outperforms all but the most radical race boats cannot be trusted to sail itself, unless you reef it down to where it won't outperform.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You forgot to mention the tradeoff between performance and safety in catamarans. A catamaran which outperforms all but the most radical race boats cannot be trusted to sail itself, unless you reef it down to where it won't outperform.

What a ridiculous statement. You obviously didn't read the article.

[mglonnro]

"When compared to a design of type 1 or 4 the modern multihull is much more streamlined, about half the weight, has an efficient keel, wide width for high stability and sail carrying power, and larger rig. All these features combine together to give a windward performance better than any equivalent sized monohull. In a force 4 wind, a modern 60ft racing trimaran will sail upwind at 16 knots tacking through 75 degrees. While an open bridgedeck cruising cat like the Spectrum 42 will tack through 80 degrees, at around 10 knots.

The implications of this sort of performance is also an indication that modern multihulls will sail upwind in a gale long after the monohulls have had to heave to. Indeed this superior windward ability has been conclusively demonstrated in all the windward races of the North Atlantic and is a factor of major significance in the improved seaworthiness of modern designs."

That's settled then

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

"
The implications of this sort of performance is also an indication that modern multihulls will sail upwind in a gale long after the monohulls have had to heave to. Indeed this superior windward ability has been conclusively demonstrated in all the windward races of the North Atlantic and is a factor of major significance in the improved seaworthiness of modern designs."

That's settled then

You can fantasize all you want, but here is some reality. A week ago three out of four ultimate tris in the Brest Atlantic race took shelter in Rio to wait for better weather before they headed to Cape Town.

https://www.brestatlantiques.com/act...ue-tous-l-abri

[smj]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You can fantasize all you want, but here is some reality. A week ago three out of four ultimate tris in the Brest Atlantic race took shelter in Rio to wait for better weather before they headed to Cape Town.



https://www.brestatlantiques.com/act...ue-tous-l-abri

Ultimate tris......now that has a whole lot to do with cruisers forum?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Hmmm, we have baggy 10 year old Hydranet sails (unfortunately the cloth is still in great condition so no point in replacing anytime soon). Our upwind AWA is 34-38 degrees and that’s to maintain enough speed to avoid atrocious leeway. That translates to 100-120 degree tacks, depending mostly on wind strength. We will slow down, but usually speed up, to improve VMG.

Even with the sails we’ve got we really romp once we’re powered up. Light upwind is where the self-tacking jib shows it’s short comings.

Using the numbers Roam quoted, that boat would have been tacking through around 140 degrees, and making less than 3 knots VMG in a 10 kt breeze.

I'm quite sure that boat can do better than that, which was why I questioned the numbers.