Broken Lagoon

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A standard largely promoted by in Europe by the British Marine Industry Federation largely to avoid the need to build to internal French and Italian standards

The ISO standards associated with CE marking which assures complicity with the RCD , is not self certification , a “ notified body “ is involved. However most large companies have the certification in house but that is not quite the same.

Of course who is to say they are actually built to the ISO standards. Manufacturers are notorious for taking shortcuts especially on high volume designs. No doubt in time it will transpire that lagoon are simply skimping

Actually it dates back a long time before any need for compliance with French or Italian standards...

The Society printed the first Register of Ships in 1764 in order to give both underwriters and merchants an idea of the condition of the vessels they insured and chartered: ship hulls were graded by a lettered scale (A being the best), and ship's fittings (masts, rigging, and other equipment) were graded by number (1 being the best). Thus the best classification "A1", from which the expression A1 or A1 at Lloyd's is derived, first appeared in the 1775–76 edition of the Register.

Another advantage of the Lloyds 100A/1 is the requirement that each stage is inspected by an approved surveyor before the build can continue.. thus negating the possibility of production line boat building.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

It sure helps if boat is built well however in my opinion is more important sailor skills and preparedness and mindset.

Lagoon 400 that was years ago trapped in 20 m breaking seas returning to eu from carib....

problems started when ropes got to props and leak in one engine room and engines died.

Then they called help and got 300m tanker that smashed the boat when they approached.

I do not see how 'properly' built boat could end up any different.

The main issue was operator error as it has not prepared boat for storm and wrong wave got ropes loose. Kind of 'cross fingers' approach.

For L 400 type of boat one needs active management of storm. Sea anchor i think is not appropriate as boat too bulky. This is one true advantage of performance cats.

I'm not sure what operator error has to do with building boats that don't measure up. Yes you could drive a car into a brick wall but I'm not sure that youd learn much about the quality of the car, other than how well the crumple zones worked.
Lagoon dropped the ball just like Beneteau did years ago with its glued on rudder support systems. When companies develop product built down to a price your going to have these sorts of things happen from time to time. 99% of these boats never are sailed offshore and the few that are generally are capable of getting the job done so for the average user I think these boats are great value. I'm not sure it's even fair to measure an entry level, high value sailboat against a builder like HR, Amel or Hylas..the price difference alone means that the upper end boats are too expensive for the average buyer.
Generally as long as your sailing in season,in the lower latitudes your Lagoon will get you there. This model we are discussing seems to have taken the cost cutting to the extreme....that's unfortunate.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Actually it dates back a long time before any need for compliance with French or Italian standards...

The Society printed the first Register of Ships in 1764 in order to give both underwriters and merchants an idea of the condition of the vessels they insured and chartered: ship hulls were graded by a lettered scale (A being the best), and ship's fittings (masts, rigging, and other equipment) were graded by number (1 being the best). Thus the best classification "A1", from which the expression A1 or A1 at Lloyd's is derived, first appeared in the 1775–76 edition of the Register.

Another advantage of the Lloyds 100A/1 is the requirement that each stage is inspected by an approved surveyor before the build can continue.. thus negating the possibility of production line boat building.

I was referring to the RCD. A European standard largely promoted by the BMIF !

Very few leisure boats were built to 100A/1 primarily due to the survey costs. ( and the additional build costs to boot ) Hence it’s not really germane to this debate.

One could argue about lagoon building to ditch German or whatever standard but clearly they didn’t or are not. ( it would seem)

The scantling rules etc for RCD Area A are quite robust etc so it remains to be seen exactly what Lagoon are doing

At the end of the day , the British boat industry along with most of the scandi companies ending up building boats nobody wanted , whereas the demand for lagoon is reputedly “ out the door “ at present.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I was referring to the RCD. A European standard largely promoted by the BMIF !

Very few leisure boats were built to 100A/1 primarily due to the survey costs. ( and the additional build costs to boot ) Hence it’s not really germane to this debate.

One could argue about lagoon building to ditch German or whatever standard but clearly they didn’t or are not. ( it would seem)

The scantling rules etc for RCD Area A are quite robust etc so it remains to be seen exactly what Lagoon are doing

At the end of the day , the British boat industry along with most of the scandi companies ending up building boats nobody wanted , whereas the demand for lagoon is reputedly “ out the door “ at present.

Westerly built their yachts with the Lloyds 100A certificate up to 1993 when they ceased due to cost, however they did continue to build to those standards.
That's a lot of boats counting Centaurs, Longbow, Berwick, Griffon, the GK Series etc..
But.. as you say, that's mono's, though I believe that Prouts and Catalacs were also built to Lloyds Standard.
No one wants them either even tho' they led the way.. but they do last longer it seems..

[CatNewBee]

Well, we had some severe weather too - not too bad - in the Med. We crossed an ocean, the boat was in charter before we bought it, so not really used carefully. I still think the 400S2 is good value for the price and I would not hesitate to cross the next ocean on it. Even after this turmoil a cheap 450S OW would be a great upgrade.

Of course I will check my bulkheads and maybe repair or reinforce them if necessary. I do not think I need to rip out all furniture to do this, but who knows.

I think the panels and furniture is hard to be rebuilt to original factory design, as it is built outside as a block and slapped into the hull before the deck is glued on top, the panels are too big to fit through the openings.

If I would be in the situation of Collin, I would rebuilt the furniture much smarter with removable panels with access openings for wiring, plumbing, easy service and inspection and more storage space, finally it may look even better than the factory installation. I do not think the factory furniture is any good for cruising and living on board, as it is a sevicing nightmare - it is more for aestetics and a clean look at boat shows.

Anyway, I am very curious how this project develops.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

If boats are driven hard or with multiple ocean crossing is different than coastal cruising. I remember inspecting french performance cat 4 years old that owner claimed 350 nm days. Built really well. However there were structural cracks around mast and elsewhere.

Sea is too powerful. Anyone thinking differently is set for nasty surprise.

Sea can damage anything. That is not the point.

These boat models in question have breaking / rotting structural parts even if they barely left the dock.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

It sure helps if boat is built well however in my opinion is more important sailor skills and preparedness and mindset.

Lagoon 400 that was years ago trapped in 20 m breaking seas returning to eu from carib....

problems started when ropes got to props and leak in one engine room and engines died.

Then they called help and got 300m tanker that smashed the boat when they approached.

I do not see how 'properly' built boat could end up any different.

The main issue was operator error as it has not prepared boat for storm and wrong wave got ropes loose. Kind of 'cross fingers' approach.

For L 400 type of boat one needs active management of storm. Sea anchor i think is not appropriate as boat too bulky. This is one true advantage of performance cats.

These 450's are breaking bulkheads and pulling the hulls up in relatively normal use, and now you're saying that any boat would have problems with 20m waves breaking over them and smashing into 300m tankers... What a ridiculous comment to make.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Sheriffdep

So the crux of the matter is that Lagoon will have to satisfactorily provide the means and compensation to make this situation go away. Obviously not all owners will financially remain the same and will lose money and time. Other owners will live in stress for the potential issues and sell their cats at a loss. Lagoon likely can and possibly will satisfy the majority of owners in the end and this will not destroy finances for all involved. If Lagoon only fixes a few cats and ignores the rest, a lot of financial woes will ensue on all sides.

I don't think lagoon are too concerned about US class actions. It's a french company and their US assets are likely limited to a boat show booth and a few brochures. Everything else is owned by importers and dealers.

Personally I don't expect any customer will succeed in a french court against a french company.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

These 450's are breaking bulkheads and pulling the hulls up in relatively normal use, and now you're saying that any boat would have problems with 20m waves breaking over them and smashing into 300m tankers... What a ridiculous comment to make.

you making no sense.

Which makes me to believe that right now

PEANUT GALLERY IN ACTION

[Sheriffdep]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I don't think lagoon are too concerned about US class actions. It's a french company and their US assets are likely limited to a boat show booth and a few brochures. Everything else is owned by importers and dealers.

Personally I don't expect any customer will succeed in a french court against a french company.

That most likely is true; however, the PR issue does not have borders. If charter companies, owners or purchasers of the cats, get squishy then that might be disastrous. Same for ALL of Lagoon owners. While some, even people who have posted in this thread, love their Lagoons in other sizes, find out when they decide to sell that values may have dropped considerably or there just isnt the buyer desire to own any of them, that will not be good. All it takes for other models to suffer the fate will be ONE to have the issue. Regardless if that vessel had contributing factors, it will be left to the general public that it COULD happen to their cat. Yes its a rabbit hole and this whole situation could end up going either way in the end. Just trying to change the topic from my bulkhead is stronger than yours and if yours is broken then you must have been sailing in a hurricane.

[CatNewBee]

I guess, there will be some aggressive buyers too, that stir the pot to get the prices down and get a cheap boat out of the crisis.

So I would recommend to just stay calm, check for issues and let Lagoon do their job. If there is really a bigger issue, there will be recalls, inspections and repairs. After that, the boat will be OK again for cruising and reselling without a big loss. If you have indications, that your bulkheads are affected (e. g. deformations, issues with the doors...), notify your dealer and arrange an inspection or get a surveyor.

If you do a bigger refit, you may reinforce the bulkheads prophylactically by adding plywood and glass on the structural parts. It seems there is enough space for a stronger construction, at least on the important main bulkheads on the mastbridge and the engine room, also the door frames seem to be easyly removeable. it is probably not necessary to double or tripple the whole structure, it may be sufficient to reinforce the weak points only, I am sure there will be a recommendation from the manufacturer, likely with supplied material.

[Joli]

Watching the videos it looks like the issue will be repairing the interior cabinetry after repairing the bulkhead. With lagoons fabrication capabilities they may be able to reproduce matching panels that replace those panels that are destroyed to gain access to make the repairs. Lagoon could send a flat pack to dealers with the necessary panels to reinstall. It'll be interesting.

[owly]

Lagoon will not be able to contain this issue any more than Boeing was able to contain the 737 MAX. People are going to talk about it, share the information with friends, Lagoon owners, potential buyers, etc. There is apparently a Lagoon group on FB with over 7K members, and who knows how many other sources are spreading this........ and they should be. We need to talk about it, and make sure the information is out there for potential buyers to find so that nobody walks into buying a Lagoon 450 blind. That's what these forums are for aren't they? Too often groups like FB are used to spread utter nonsense, lies, conspiracy theories, and general hate. This is a REAL issue of REAL concern that could effect any of us.


The idea that Lagoon could be forced to repair and reinforce all these boat is beyond absurd.... it isn't going to happen. They are a big player in a small business. Yacht manufacturing is not a huge industry, and the cost of repairing every 450 is probably beyond what they could afford by a LONG shot. It's not a high margin business with deep pockets generally, and hundreds of boat builders have gone under over the years. The idea of a class action is just absurd... the lawyers get rich, the owners get peanuts... IF it ever got through the court system.



I personally would not buy ANY Lagoon after seeing what sort of sloppy careless workmanship was behind the paneling on this boat. It's unrealistic to expect that the poor construction is confined to the 450........ Others may not have broken... perhaps designed with more safety margin?? but that does not imply that the same techniques and sloppy workmanship is not hidden behind the walls on them.....

[smj]

The most accurate info on this problem comes from the Facebook “Lagoon 450f/s bulkhead issue” group. This group is made up of mostly Lagoon owners, some who have the bulkhead problems and others that don’t. It discusses the issues, and Lagoons ongoing position regarding the issues. The pictures they show of the problems are interesting. I for one hope Lagoon steps up to the plate and takes care of the boats and their owners.

[owly]

Originally Posted by smj

The most accurate info on this problem comes from the Facebook “Lagoon 450f/s bulkhead issue” group. This group is made up of mostly Lagoon owners, some who have the bulkhead problems and others that don’t. It discusses the issues, and Lagoons ongoing position regarding the issues. The pictures they show of the problems are interesting. I for one hope Lagoon steps up to the plate and takes care of the boats and their owners.

Perhaps I'm the only one here who is Facebook Hostile.... but I suspect there are others. Unfortunately content on FB is not available except to members. Most other groups on the internet (like CF & others) are open to the extent that outsiders can read the content...but not participate, Facebook does everything they can to maintain a walled garden. I would encourage sharing relevant content where it can be viewed by anybody. It would be a good thing if discussion groups like the one mentioned would open up a group on Groups.IO, or even a sub forum here as a rebellion against Zuckerberg's greed based policies.
I personally found Facebook intolerable in a number of ways, and cancelled my membership quite a few years ago deeming the negatives to far outweigh the positives.....Your mileage may vary. I'm obviously out of step with the majority... but I always have been.