Broad Reach in higher windspeeds / at night

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Snore

As I recall most cat manufacturers call for a fully stowed main and a tissue of jib when things get extreme.

Every so often I almost make a mistake...l This is one of them

From the Lagoon 400 manual (most are the similar)

CLOSED REACHED TRIMMING (between 75 and 130° to truewind)-

From 0 to 23 knots: full sail ; the traveler is positioned between 1 meter from centre up to windward of center, depending on the wind angle, the sheet is slackened so that boom is veering out anything from50 cm in calm weather to 2 meters when the wind is forcing.In every case no more than one batten should be allowed to chafe atthe shroud at the fastest speeds.The Genoa jib is slackened so that its average attack angle is head onto the apparent wind.-

From 23 to 28 knots: 1 Reef, full Genoa. The adjustments are iden-tical.-

From 28 to 33 knots: 2 Reef, 80% of the Genoa.

From 33 to 38 knots: 2 Reef, 60% of the Genoa. The adjustments areidentical.-

From 38 to 45 knots: 3 Reef (or mainsail lowered and a little moreGenoa), 40% of the Genoa. The adjustments are identical.-

From 45 to 55 knots: mainsail lowered, 40 to 30% of the Genoa, sufficiently trimmed so as not to flap.-

Over 55 knots: scudding,depending on the sea conditions the moo-ring lines can be looped round behind the vessel and attached on theopposite side to act as a brake.


That is why especially in Cats to read the manual!!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Snore

Every so often I almost make a mistake...l This is one of them

From the Lagoon 400 manual (most are the similar)

CLOSED REACHED TRIMMING (between 75 and 130° to truewind)-

From 0 to 23 knots: full sail ; the traveler is positioned between 1 meter from centre up to windward of center, depending on the wind angle, the sheet is slackened so that boom is veering out anything from50 cm in calm weather to 2 meters when the wind is forcing.In every case no more than one batten should be allowed to chafe atthe shroud at the fastest speeds.The Genoa jib is slackened so that its average attack angle is head onto the apparent wind.-

From 23 to 28 knots: 1 Reef, full Genoa. The adjustments are iden-tical.-

From 28 to 33 knots: 2 Reef, 80% of the Genoa.

From 33 to 38 knots: 2 Reef, 60% of the Genoa. The adjustments areidentical.-

From 38 to 45 knots: 3 Reef (or mainsail lowered and a little moreGenoa), 40% of the Genoa. The adjustments are identical.-

From 45 to 55 knots: mainsail lowered, 40 to 30% of the Genoa, sufficiently trimmed so as not to flap.-

Over 55 knots: scudding,depending on the sea conditions the moo-ring lines can be looped round behind the vessel and attached on theopposite side to act as a brake.


That is why especially in Cats to read the manual!!

Wow, what a detailed manual! The only quibble I’d have is the traveller positioning - in lighter air in each of the ranges it should be OK to reduce the mainsail twist by dropping the traveller and tightening the sheet. This will provide more power and reduce the rubbing on the rig.

Our manual (and same contents other than boat-specific customisations as those that I’ve seen of several sister ships) only has a reefing guide based on apparent wind speed and doesn’t say anything about trimming. I guess Outremer’s expectation was that the owners of a cat like ours already have cat experience?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Wow, what a detailed manual! The only quibble I’d have is the traveller positioning - in lighter air in each of the ranges it should be OK to reduce the mainsail twist by dropping the traveller and tightening the sheet. This will provide more power and reduce the rubbing on the rig.

Our manual (and same contents other than boat-specific customisations as those that I’ve seen of several sister ships) only has a reefing guide based on apparent wind speed and doesn’t say anything about trimming. I guess Outremer’s expectation was that the owners of a cat like ours already have cat experience?

manual is ok for total starter, which is many in lagoon owner community. Now i use mostly different, relaxed settings. Had to amend reefing to be able to reef downwind, introduce downhaul, etc. So I can carry full sail in 25 app in broadreach as I can reef downwind. Also one learns when boat is owerpowered without looking at numbers - they are often crap anyway .

Note there is no limitations for winds above 130 true. Except to reef at around 15 kn boat speed or if seas too rough.

One would expect outremer owner knows this stuff.

[arsenelupiga]

here is for winds 130 true + for lagoon 400. Probably only thing that matters here is waterline length. For O 55, would expect max speed would be around 20 rest of instructions should be okay.

• NAVIGATION WIND ASTERN
- Do not fall off more than 150° to the apparent wind.
- Put the traveler out as far as possible and slacken the sheet slightly.
- Make sure the mainsail does not touch the shrouds ; the rubbing of the
battens will wear the material and cable very rapidly.
- Keep mainsail + solent up to 15 knots speed and put in one reef or more
if the accelerations are sudden and strong or if sea conditions deteriorate.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here is for winds 130 true + for lagoon 400. Probably only thing that matters here is waterline length. For O 55, would expect max speed would be around 20 rest of instructions should be okay.



• NAVIGATION WIND ASTERN

- Do not fall off more than 150° to the apparent wind.

- Put the traveler out as far as possible and slacken the sheet slightly.

- Make sure the mainsail does not touch the shrouds ; the rubbing of the

battens will wear the material and cable very rapidly.

- Keep mainsail + solent up to 15 knots speed and put in one reef or more

if the accelerations are sudden and strong or if sea conditions deteriorate.

What does boat speed have to do with a reefing guide? Comfort and safety are totally related to the sea conditions, which are not linear or even necessarily correlated with the wind speed.

As well, isn’t it simpler to express the wind speeds (and angles) in apparent, as that is exactly what is felt by the rig?

Our reefing guide has mainsail first reef in 20 knots apparent - it doesn’t matter whether that’s upwind, reaching or downwind - if we see 20 knots AWS and the sea conditions warrant it, we reef. In actual fact reaching and running we reef way ahead of the reefing guide.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

What does boat speed have to do with a reefing guide? Comfort and safety are totally related to the sea conditions, which are not linear or even necessarily correlated with the wind speed.

As well, isn’t it simpler to express the wind speeds (and angles) in apparent, as that is exactly what is felt by the rig?

Our reefing guide has mainsail first reef in 20 knots apparent - it doesn’t matter whether that’s upwind, reaching or downwind - if we see 20 knots AWS and the sea conditions warrant it, we reef. In actual fact reaching and running we reef way ahead of the reefing guide.

that is from manual. Building 3000 cats, they probably have god stats what works. And for 40 ft boats they say should not cross 15 kn.

Why do you reef earlier than reefing schedule for your boat ? Just to keep it low stress ? Presume you can reef downwind.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

that is from manual. Building 3000 cats, they probably have god stats what works. And for 40 ft boats they say should not cross 15 kn.



Why do you reef earlier than reefing schedule for your boat ? Just to keep it low stress ? Presume you can reef downwind.

Why earlier? Because we’re already going as fast or faster than is comfortable and don’t need the extra power to go nearly as fast and be more comfortable (typically, if prior to reefing average speed is 10 knots with surfs to upper teens, a reef brings the average down to 9.5 knots and surfs to low teens). Upwind, no surfing, but similar negligible reduction in average speed and without the leaping off waves (8.5 down to 8 average and top speeds 12 down to 9). And it provides greater gust resilience. We pay for this small sail area performance with skinnier hulls, less accommodations, and fewer toys.

Reefing downwind is technique and not boat-related, though severely swept back spreaders can make it more difficult.[LIST][*] Bring the traveller up to or even beyond the centreline[*] Sheet in the main so that the boom is near the centreline and the leech is well off the rig. Amount of sheet should be such that the boom can rise to the reef clew without overly tensioning the sheet (more traveller if needed to keep the main off the rig)[*] Lower the halyard and haul in the clew line together, 1 or 2 metres at a time, so as to continue keeping the main off the rig [*] Repeat until the reef tack is made, retension the halyard, then the reef clew (probably much easier to manage with single line reefing, but we’ve got separate lines)[*] Ease the traveller and main sheet to retrim the main

[django37]

Have sailed close to dead downwind round the world with the main on the shrouds some 95% of the way. Have good antichafes where the battens touch the shrouds. No problem. Consist of 4 mm PVC held in place by black sailnumbercloth. PS: have never used the 3. reef even though my main is 7 m2 bigger than standard

[Snore]

To those who “amend the manual” and reef at high speeds— have you done a load analysis?

Cats have THREE cables holding up a mast and big main. Why in the world would you exceed manufacturer’s specs????

If you do not reef as recommended you overload the shrouds. Basic failure analysis indicates the weakest link will fail. Likely NOT the cable, perhaps the compression fitting at the turnbuckle or where the chain plate mounts to the hull.

And for what purpose would you exceed and risk losing the rig? A 1/4-1/2 a knot of speed?

On a delivery if the book says to reef at 20; when we get the first gust at 20 we reef. Woe upon the crewman who is on watch with winds at 22-23 and I was not awakened to set the reef.

Fortunately, my crew(s) know to wake me

[guyrj33]

OP wrote:
Lets assume you want to be on a broad reach at night in higher windspeeds. (20-30knts true)

Ok so let's remember a broad reach is 135 degrees.
so the reference from the owners manual for the Lagoon 400 manual is informative but not really on point as it's for CLOSED REACHED TRIMMING (between 75 and 130° to truewind)-.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Snore

Cats have THREE cables holding up a mast and big main.

Standing rigging does not hold a mast UP, it holds it in column.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Factor

Standing rigging does not hold a mast UP, it holds it in column.

If it is a decked stepped mast- remove a shroud and tell me what happens....

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Factor

Standing rigging does not hold a mast UP, it holds it in column.

Not necessarily.

If just forestay/shrouds then the primary role of the standing rigging is to keep the mast from falling over. The secondary role via spreaders and any intermediate shrouds is to keep the mast in column.

But, with a mast with diamond stays and no spreaders on the shrouds, the stays hold the mast in column and the forestay/shrouds keep it from falling over. Two separate jobs.

And, a wing mast or spreaderless mast holds itself in column. Forestay/shrouds are used to keep it from falling over, aka holding it up.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Snore

If it is a decked stepped mast- remove a shroud and tell me what happens....

It will fall over, but wire rope cannot hold anything UP. Surely you understand "you can't push rope" even wire rope. Anyway, its a semantic point. Move along.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Snore

To those who “amend the manual” and reef at high speeds— have you done a load analysis?

Cats have THREE cables holding up a mast and big main. Why in the world would you exceed manufacturer’s specs????

If you do not reef as recommended you overload the shrouds. Basic failure analysis indicates the weakest link will fail. Likely NOT the cable, perhaps the compression fitting at the turnbuckle or where the chain plate mounts to the hull.

And for what purpose would you exceed and risk losing the rig? A 1/4-1/2 a knot of speed?

On a delivery if the book says to reef at 20; when we get the first gust at 20 we reef. Woe upon the crewman who is on watch with winds at 22-23 and I was not awakened to set the reef.

Fortunately, my crew(s) know to wake me

you have point, however manual, one cited above and many others are written simple way. Loads at 125 true and 135 true are not that much away.

However at 125 true you can hold full sail up to 23 app, at 135 true, you have limit 15 kn boat speed.

At 75 true you still have 23 kn app limit, but loads are much higher than at 125 app. Clearly rules are written for IQ 50. One can see that likely loads at 125 one should be able to push full sails to 12 kn boat speed, or thereabout and not overload the rigging.

Apart from this I have other measures for overload, like leeward shroud tension, and some other subtile signs that boat is overloaded.

Quite confident my rig is not overstressed. No cracks, no breakages no chafe. Sea condition is really the boss here.