Bali 4.0 - Owner's point of view

[Bullshooter]

Thanks Tin Tin. I like that last suggestion best.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Today, we had 3-5 kts of wind... so we ended up motoring. Will see what the weather is like next week.

[CarlF]

The way to have a slow cat (or mono) upwind is to have a large fixed prop, blown out, cross cut cheap Dacron sails, and a skipper who doesn’t know sail trim.

Unfortunately, that describes 90% of charter cats - but probably not the OP’s Bali.

I have a Leopard 50 with Gori props, triradial premium sails from Dave Calvert, and 40 years of monohull racing experience. I can sail upwind at 32AWA (53TWA) - 7.5kts water speed in 18 kts apparent wind. Tacking angle 110 degrees including leeway (measured off chartplotter track).

VMG to windward is comparable to the Discovery 55 I used to own with 8ft draft.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by CarlF

The way to have a slow cat (or mono) upwind is to have a large fixed prop, blown out, cross cut cheap Dacron sails, and a skipper who doesn’t know sail trim.

Unfortunately, that describes 90% of charter cats - but probably not the OP’s Bali.

I have a Leopard 50 with Gori props, triradial premium sails from Dave Calvert, and 40 years of monohull racing experience. I can sail upwind at 32AWA (53TWA) - 7.5kts water speed in 18 kts apparent wind. Tacking angle 110 degrees including leeway (measured off chartplotter track).

VMG to windward is comparable to the Discovery 55 I used to own with 8ft draft.

Video of the sea state and instruments, including SOG, COG, windspeed, and motor RPM with at least one tack, or it only happens in your dreams in a 4 knot following current. Its a 50,000 pound boat, and whether it has daggerboards seems to be a state secret.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Video of the sea state and instruments, including SOG, COG, windspeed, and motor RPM with at least one tack, or it only happens in your dreams in a 4 knot following current. Its a 50,000 pound boat, and whether it has daggerboards seems to be a state secret.

Yep, never seen any of these boats sail well to weather in real life. Flat water compared to proper waves between Caribbean islands makes a massive difference to a cat. They all take a step to leeward as they cross over waves adding dramatically to their leeway. Without deep daggerboards, they are in the turbulent surface water of the waves. Their massive windage is dominant. You only need to look at the side profile of these cats with their mini keels to understand why they don't sail up wind. Compare with a deep draft fin equiped monohull, and it all becomes obvious.

[HUFFnPUFF]

I noticed on mine that when I hit the wave, it steps to the side a bit. However, as the wave leaves your stern, it steps into the wind. You can see it in the pics I posted when I was sailing 30* into the wind.

Look at the pic where I was doing 4kts. The heading and COG are the same.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

I noticed on mine that when I hit the wave, it steps to the side a bit. However, as the wave leaves your stern, it steps into the wind. You can see it in the pics I posted when I was sailing 30* into the wind.

Look at the pic where I was doing 4kts. The heading and COG are the same.

You’re dreaming if you think your boat is being pushed to windward by waves at your sterns.

At a particular instant of time your instruments are showing something that likely doesn’t represent the average value. Hence the use of video to show instruments over an extended period of time (though unless you have a split screen with video of instruments and video of bows it gets boring to watch). Snap shots mean nothing.

The absolute best and generally only way to document actual performance is by looking at your track. Add in distance sailed and time taken and you can derive real world values for your boat.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by fxykty

You’re dreaming if you think your boat is being pushed to windward by waves at your sterns.

At a particular instant of time your instruments are showing something that likely doesn’t represent the average value. Hence the use of video to show instruments over an extended period of time (though unless you have a split screen with video of instruments and video of bows it gets boring to watch). Snap shots mean nothing.

The absolute best and generally only way to document actual performance is by looking at your track. Add in distance sailed and time taken and you can derive real world values for your boat.

Totally agree.
With catamarans it is meaningless talking about sailing angles. Leeway is a big factor. There is no point in saying I can sail 30degrees to the apparent wind when you have huge leeway.
You can't feel leeway when you are on the boat. You can measure it with tacking angles with a waypoint dead up wind in a none tidal/current area. You don't often see this information as most cats motor dead upwind because progress is so poor.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Totally agree.
With catamarans it is meaningless talking about sailing angles. Leeway is a big factor. There is no point in saying I can sail 30degrees to the apparent wind when you have huge leeway.
You can't feel leeway when you are on the boat. You can measure it with tacking angles with a waypoint dead up wind in a none tidal/current area. You don't often see this information as most cats motor dead upwind because progress is so poor.

If I am in a hurry, I will sail at 30* with both engines on (6.5 -8.5 depending on wind speed). Heading strait into the wind is extremely slow (3-6.5) dependingon windspeed.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

If I am in a hurry, I will sail at 30* with both engines on (6.5 -8.5 depending on wind speed). Heading strait into the wind is extremely slow (3-6.5) dependingon windspeed.

Of course. Motor sailing tight angles can be very efficient in any boat. It's not the same as sailing though

[HUFFnPUFF]

Nope... it's not. Just putting it out there.

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

HuffNPuff,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Are you able to share a track of your next sail? That would show the true result regarding tacking angle, taking into account the TWA, leeway, etc. It seems that would be helpful, especially if you could also show your plotter's TWA.

HuffnPuff,

Were you able to do this yet? Looking forward to seeing your tracks.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Not yet... just sailed down from Antigua to Guadeloupe. Seas where pretty rough (2 meter swells and 1.6 meter waves both from similar directions so we got to see 3 meter waves.) so wasn't in the mood to take a beating for a few tacks. I am heading to the south of Guadeloupe on Friday... hopefully the winds and seas will be a bit more gracious.

[Bullshooter]

Wow have a great trip!

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Not yet... just sailed down from Antigua to Guadeloupe. Seas where pretty rough (2 meter swells and 1.6 meter waves both from similar directions so we got to see 3 meter waves.) so wasn't in the mood to take a beating for a few tacks. I am heading to the south of Guadeloupe on Friday... hopefully the winds and seas will be a bit more gracious.

Don't count on it! It's the Caribbean. 2m seas is the norm. Its nice pleasant sailing when you get used to it😀