Bali 4.0 - Owner's point of view

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Read this
https://sailsurfroam.com/blog-michae...bp03893ie1vv6v
An honest assessment of upwind ability from a larger and more sporty cat with trick sails.
He talks about 120deg in the conditions the OP boasts about

I remember that blog and he says they are usually tacking through 100-110*, with the occasional 120*. So you’re wrong that 120* is the average. Additionally, his genoa is cut for 38* AWA. That’s almost reaching with any sort of speed! Roam is a light boat with not a lot of live aboard gear so she acts up in seas.

A slightly heavier boat with sails cut for tighter angles (say 32* AWA) limits boat speed to 50-55% of TWS and allows for tighter tacking angles and decent VMG even in big seas. At least, that’s our experience on a 12 tonne 54’ performance cruising cat. In shorter period waves and/or bigger seas we slow down to below 9 knots to limit launches and their subsequent crashes.

Back to the OP. He’s got a short, heavy, wide-hulled cat with lots of form drag. 110* tacking angle is reasonable as long as he can stay fully powered up, but again we don’t know from his information whether that’s a 55* sailing TWA doubled for a virtual tacking angle or whether that’s an actual tacking angle.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I remember that blog and he says they are usually tacking through 100-110*, with the occasional 120*. So you’re wrong that 120* is the average. Additionally, his genoa is cut for 38* AWA. That’s almost reaching with any sort of speed! Roam is a light boat with not a lot of live aboard gear so she acts up in seas.

A slightly heavier boat with sails cut for tighter angles (say 32* AWA) limits boat speed to 50-55% of TWS and allows for tighter tacking angles and decent VMG even in big seas. At least, that’s our experience on a 12 tonne 54’ performance cruising cat. In shorter period waves and/or bigger seas we slow down to below 9 knots to limit launches and their subsequent crashes.

Back to the OP. He’s got a short, heavy, wide-hulled cat with lots of form drag. 110* tacking angle is reasonable as long as he can stay fully powered up, but again we don’t know from his information whether that’s a 55* sailing TWA doubled for a virtual tacking angle or whether that’s an actual tacking angle.

I never said 120 was the average. The OP says he can do 110deg in 30 kts and 10ft seas.
We are not talking performance cruising cat with the OPs boat. It is the most basic accomodation orientated charter barge on the market. It has no sailing credentials. It a a brick with a stick. Who do you really think is giving an accurate account of upwind sailing performance?
I have owned cats with more performance than the OP. Sailed them across the Atlantic both ways. I have raced friends with Nautitec cats and FP cats in my monohull. They can't get anywhere near my deep draft monos performance up wind. In the conditions the OP describes, my 7'2' draft Van de Stadt 44 would really struggle to make 110deg tacking angle. Suggesting it can be done in the Bali is frankly, unbelievable,

[HUFFnPUFF]

Like I said.... doesn't matter what I say. I went ahead and took a pic as I pushed how close I can point (25* to 35*). Seas were 4-6, winds were 15 - 20. My speed was 2.8 to 4 kts. I took some pics of both my course over ground and my headings. The pics represent best numbers and worse numbers. Just depending on if I was crashing into the waves or not. Waves were crashing over my bow at times. Have at it.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Like I said.... doesn't matter what I say. I went ahead and took a pic as I pushed how close I can point (25* to 35*). Seas were 4-6, winds were 15 - 20. My speed was 2.8 to 4 kts. I took some pics of both my course over ground and my headings. The pics represent best numbers and worse numbers. Just depending on if I was crashing into the waves or not. Waves were crashing over my bow at times. Have at it.

You still haven't proved anything. Anybody can take a snapshot of their display. I could probably find you one of us doing 12kts but it would be on a wave surfing. I could then post it and tell you it was our average speed.
We met a German couple in Barbuda. They had chartered a FP for a three week holiday. They told us they had a Bali cat. It was in charter. They said it was out of charter next year. They told us how poor the sailing performance of the Bali was compared to the FP. We agreed to race from Barbuda to Green Island, Antigua. Its only 30nm but we were hard on the wind. Only about 12kts of true wind. We beat them by over an hour! They tacked numerous times. We tacked once.

[jbinbi]

I hope the owners of the forum are reading this thread and my post. This is why I spend less and less time here. Why would you think the OP is trying to deceive us with false info. Do you think he works for Bail and is trying to sell boats or something. Inflating his ego. He wrote up a great post about his boat. I thank him for that. People come here to get info, you hope someone with more knowledge or experience will pleasantly give it. Too bad too many have to attack you, or show you how much more they know. Life doesn't have to be a whip it out and compare sizes for every single thing!

Oh, and lack of an app for phone/tablet makes it much harder to use the site, but I understand tech limitations and the owners having to upkeep said apps. But still use the site way less.

Thanks to those who give their knowledge freely and nicely

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

You still haven't proved anything. Anybody can take a snapshot of their display. I could probably find you one of us doing 12kts but it would be on a wave surfing. I could then post it and tell you it was our average speed.
We met a German couple in Barbuda. They had chartered a FP for a three week holiday. They told us they had a Bali cat. It was in charter. They said it was out of charter next year. They told us how poor the sailing performance of the Bali was compared to the FP. We agreed to race from Barbuda to Green Island, Antigua. Its only 30nm but we were hard on the wind. Only about 12kts of true wind. We beat them by over an hour! They tacked numerous times. We tacked once.

Your story is about a single owner you randomly met. Who knows what their experience and experiences are. Maybe you beat them by an hour because they didn't know how to sail. Why did they have to tack multiple times. That just slows you down more, especially if you are on a cat. So it took you 4 hours and them 5? You have a 44, was this a fp 40 that sails well? Truthfully, I really don't care or want to know, I trust what the OP is saying. He is giving firsthand knowledge, you challenge him for not posting pics, he post pics, and then say, 'well, anyone can take a pic to prove the point'. OP is not trying to prove points, he is just telling his ownership story. I would be more circumspect if he had a link to his boat for sale on yachtworld on his signature.

OP didn't say his boat was outpointing a J boat. He basically was saying that he was happy with the performance of his boat going to windward. He said boat was best once it hit 50-70 awa. Same as other cruising cats. Says his performance dropped off dramatically under 40. Same as other cruising cats. For those who are considering a Bali, like myself, and can't test sail the boat under lots of conditions, his post is much appreciated! I hope others do the same, but fear less will do so if their word won't be taken.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I hope the owners of the forum are reading this thread and my post. This is why I spend less and less time here. Why would you think the OP is trying to deceive us with false info. Do you think he works for Bail and is trying to sell boats or something. Inflating his ego. He wrote up a great post about his boat. I thank him for that. People come here to get info, you hope someone with more knowledge or experience will pleasantly give it. Too bad too many have to attack you, or show you how much more they know. Life doesn't have to be a whip it out and compare sizes for every single thing!

Oh, and lack of an app for phone/tablet makes it much harder to use the site, but I understand tech limitations and the owners having to upkeep said apps. But still use the site way less.

Thanks to those who give their knowledge freely and nicely

The flip side of the argument is that leaving information without contesting it provides misinformation for those that are looking for the thruth. Embellishing accounts of how grateful something is isn't new. If you are happy for that to go then great. I would rather readers of the forum were not duped.
I doubt there is a worst performing production charter cat on the market for up wind than a Bali. They were not built for performance. They are a charter barge. Solid bridge deck, shallow draft, huge windage, boom half way up the mast. They are optimised for accommodation. Most charters and many cruisers on similar catamarans don't sail to windward so the designers simply built a cat to suit the market. The OP would have us believe that it will out perform a deep draft monohull up wind.

[LAGERTHA]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

The flip side of the argument is that leaving information without contesting it provides misinformation for those that are looking for the thruth. Embellishing accounts of how grateful something is isn't new. If you are happy for that to go then great. I would rather readers of the forum were not duped.
I doubt there is a worst performing production charter cat on the market for up wind than a Bali. They were not built for performance. They are a charter barge. Solid bridge deck, shallow draft, huge windage, boom half way up the mast. They are optimised for accommodation. Most charters and many cruisers on similar catamarans don't sail to windward so the designers simply built a cat to suit the market. The OP would have us believe that it will out perform a deep draft monohull up wind.

__________________________________________________ _________

I always enjoy and find Huf's posts credible and informative, and I encourage him to continue to pass on more of his Bali experience and knowledge. "Wandering" sails a monohull and probably has limited or no experience with a Bali, and is in the wrong forum? He ("Wandering") doubts there is a worst performing production Cat. That's a generalized statement and can be classified as a bunch of BS. Unfortunately, there are individuals consistently negative and typically anti-Bali. I also believe Jbinbi is calling it like he sees it.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by LAGERTHA

__________________________________________________ _________

I always enjoy and find Huf's posts credible and informative, and I encourage him to continue to pass on more of his Bali experience and knowledge. "Wandering" sails a monohull and probably has limited or no experience with a Bali, and is in the wrong forum? He ("Wandering") doubts there is a worst performing production Cat. That's a generalized statement and can be classified as a bunch of BS. Unfortunately, there are individuals consistently negative and typically anti-Bali. I also believe Jbinbi is calling it like he sees it.

How much ocean sailing have you done in any catamaran? I have done a couple of Atlantic crossings. Owned cats for 15 years.
Swapped to mono for their load carrying capacity and their better ability to sail up wind in an ocean environment.
Happy for you to suggest a worse performing cat upwind if you can find one

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

He basically was saying that he was happy with the performance of his boat going to windward. He said boat was best once it hit 50-70 awa. Same as other cruising cats. Says his performance dropped off dramatically under 40. Same as other cruising cats. For those who are considering a Bali, like myself, and can't test sail the boat under lots of conditions, his post is much appreciated! I hope others do the same, but fear less will do so if their word won't be taken.

I want to also thank Huf for posting his performance numbers. What you may not understand is the difference between AWA and TWA. An AWA of 60 at 9 knots with a TWS of is a TWA of 83 degrees. Add 4 degrees of leeway and you will have a VMG to weather of 0.5 knots. and a tacking angle of 174 degrees.

If Huf will give us COG and SOG on two tacks when going to weather, it will give a lot better data on the boat's windward ability.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

The flip side of the argument is that leaving information without contesting it provides misinformation for those that are looking for the thruth. Embellishing accounts of how grateful something is isn't new. If you are happy for that to go then great. I would rather readers of the forum were not duped.
I doubt there is a worst performing production charter cat on the market for up wind than a Bali. They were not built for performance. They are a charter barge. Solid bridge deck, shallow draft, huge windage, boom half way up the mast. They are optimised for accommodation. Most charters and many cruisers on similar catamarans don't sail to windward so the designers simply built a cat to suit the market. The OP would have us believe that it will out perform a deep draft monohull up wind.

OP never said he was comparing his Cat to a J35 or whatever, saying that on Thu night he beats the monos to the first windward mark. If he said that, THEN I would be raising my eyebrows.

He said he tacks through 110 deg. Reasonable numbers to me. I would say that my Lagoon went ok to windward at 45 deg, though much much worse at 42 and much much better at 48. So for me, I could say I was tacking through 84, 90 or 96 deg. Heavy weather, waves, etc., I could see it being 15 more deg. No need for me to question this.

Spent lots of miles sailing a friends Seawind 1190, dagger boards, cassette rudders, traveller, not German main. His numbers were about 3 deg better than the numbers I gave, he could pinch down to 38 awa and still do ok, though again, nothing close to performance monohull.

Most cruising cats are not crossing the Atlantic, they are doing coastal cruising for week or so. Northeast and mid Atlantic in the warm weather, FL to Bahamas etc in the winter. Not charter, but owners I am talking about. A very small % are circumnavigating. FP, Lagoon, Bali are affordable boats that allow this, and sail OK. If you can't go to weather great, you turn on the engine. Not everyone is in your situation, OP is giving his real life experience with numbers that don't cause my BS detector to be going off. I really appreciate it, as what he is doing is close to what I want to be doing with a boat I am considering.

[LAGERTHA]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

How much ocean sailing have you done in any catamaran? I have done a couple of Atlantic crossings. Owned cats for 15 years.
Swapped to mono for their load carrying capacity and their better ability to sail up wind in an ocean environment.
Happy for you to suggest a worse performing cat upwind if you can find one

Glad Wandering responded (to Me) and since he asked, although not germane to this thread. I swapped my mono of 30 yrs for my Cat (Bali 4.1) because of the greater load carrying capacity, total off grid capabilities, general safety, and the multitude of redundancy and BTY…It sails better and is faster than my monohull. I also have to say, that sailing close haul and beating into the wind is not my preference, and moreover, most of us (and YES) on the Ocean will avoid sailing upwind whenever possible, just saying. (the vertebrate in my neck over the years still hurts). Who wants to state the obvious dude - beam, broad or downwind, is my preference. I did not buy our Bali for ultra performance. It doesn’t have carbon or daggerboards….we didn’t want that type of vessel, that was not our end game. It does however, have sails that you will not find on a Charter Cats. My Bali is not a Charter Cat. Apparently, wandering you lump every Bali or Charter Cat into that bucket or barge crap…that’s nonsense. Furthermore, wandering…somehow you believe that because you crossed the big pond (maybe) you now consider yourself an authority on catamarans and specifically Bali’s ??? Apparently, anyone who doesn’t throw out their nautical Bio…they are not credible in your eyes or they can’t make a contribution to this forum…you rudely call them out! You’ve been solo on a boat way too long man! Attached is a link to a more appropriate forum. Go harass them and see how far you sail in that forum.

Monohull Sailboats

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I want to also thank Huf for posting his performance numbers. What you may not understand is the difference between AWA and TWA. An AWA of 60 at 9 knots with a TWS of is a TWA of 83 degrees. Add 4 degrees of leeway and you will have a VMG to weather of 0.5 knots. and a tacking angle of 174 degrees.

If Huf will give us COG and SOG on two tacks when going to weather, it will give a lot better data on the boat's windward ability.

Yes, my wind angle is awa. My speed wheel is broken so my speed over water and true wind angle are not displayed. But I do display both COG and headings so it's easy to do the math.

I came from a monohull and was definitely worried about the true tack angle. I know my tack angle is way better than 174* because I make forward progress. . My attempt at humor

This trip was about 10 nautical miles and it took me about 3 hours. I kept about a heading of about 45* awa as i can typically maintain a 6 to 7 kts boat speed. I did sail at 30ish degrees for 20 minutes so I can post my findings. Always happy to provide more info.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Yes, my wind angle is awa. My speed wheel is broken so my speed over water and true wind angle are not displayed. But I do display both COG and headings so it's easy to do the math.

I came from a monohull and was definitely worried about the true tack angle. I know my tack angle is way better than 174* because I make forward progress. . My attempt at humor

This trip was about 10 nautical miles and it took me about 3 hours. I kept about a heading of about 45* awa as i can typically maintain a 6 to 7 kts boat speed. I did sail at 30ish degrees for 20 minutes so I can post my findings. Always happy to provide more info.

Put your numbers into a calculator like this one: https://l-36.com/polar_calculate.php. Your reports do not match physics.

Using 6 knots boat speed, 45* apparent wind angle (AWA) and 16 knots apparent wind speed you get a result of 65* true wind angle (tacking angle 130*) and a VMG of 2.55 knots. That would mean 4 hours to sail 10 miles to windward. So it seems your AWA average must be better than 45* (note, increasing your boat speed with the same AWA increases your TWA and decreases VMG), or you have a knot of current pushing you to windward, lowering your sailing time by an hour.

If we use boat speed 4 knots, AWA 30*, and AWS 16 knots we get 39* TWA (78* tacking angle) and a 3.11 knot VMG. That completes your 10 mile windward leg in around 3:20 hours.

But these are suspiciously optimistic numbers for a cat of your type and size, and since you are using SOG rather than boat speed then you must have a knot of current pushing you to windward. Otherwise, the numbers don’t add up.

Do provide more detail if it helps clarify your passage. Do you have a track of your course sailed? That would graphically show your tacking angles.

Here’s a recent track of our live aboard (means loaded with stuff)16m performance cruising cat sailing upwind with no current and light winds of 8-10 knots true wind speed. Our boat speed was 4.5-5 knots and tacking angle just over 100*.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Next time I head out (which will be in a week or two, I will head into the wind for a tack or two and see if I can get you better information. Will post then.