Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[Hoodsail]

Originally Posted by smj

I started sailing monohulls then switched to catamarans 30 years ago. I love the feeling of being in the groove on a monohull but I also love the instant acceleration I get with a catamaran.
My post wasn’t to denigrate the sailing of monohulls, it was a rebuttal to the poster that considered only monohulls as a sailors boat. I personally can appreciate both mono and multi sailing but at this point in life I still enjoy catamarans.

No denigration taken....I learned on hobie 16 and then J24...so appreciate instant acceleration too..See you own a TRT1200, which if I looked up correctly has a beam of around 24 ft! more than twice mine, so appreciate the room available with cats and I still get that instant acceleration albeit when "sliding" down the face of a 10-15 ft swell...okay not exactly "instant" more anticipatory...

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Maybe things are different elsewhere, but Cats just haven't caught on on my home port of Santa Cruz. Excepting Beach cats and A Cats, there are only half a dozen cats in the harbor, and on a given day there will be more than 10 mono's out sailing for every cat.

We have Wed nite beer can races in the summer, for bragging rights with no handicaps. The only cats near the front have been A cats and a 24 footer which was owned and sailed by two pro sailers . The 24 footer only competed in serious racing on a couple of occasions when I overrode my safety concerns to encourage participation on the basis that the were experts. They stopped racing after a season , partly because the boat was scary overpowered.
We are next door to silicon Valley, so there is no shortage of money, but all our raceboats are mono's over 20 years old So we just don't have the experience of cats with windows and beds blasting by mono's. You all are welcome to drop by and show us.

Quite funny how this thread is going wild here… 😅. Guess the winter effect in the northern hemisphere, too many of us have too much of a spare time… I still need to finish the water systems winterizing as it gets already below freezing at nights, so will stop now for a much less fun mission.

As for the above post - get 10 sailors to discuss a subject and you get 25 different opinions and 500 justifications…. 😱. The situation in Santa Cruz is very common in the northeast, the European Atlantic, North, Baltic coasts etc…. The sea conditions are not suitable for cats, most marinas are too tight (and expensive) for docking and people spend less time on the deck or out swimming.

So the intended use and specific personal situation (including the financial resources) rules as usual.

Nevertheless, a fun thread…

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

....From what you have written in various threads about your boat and the mindset behind it I couldn't really see you being happy on the average 45ft cruising cat.

Hope that helps

Great information and comparisons..... thanks

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

There are other boats from that era that are big, have good volume, will eat miles, and are no longer million dollar boats by virtue of their age. Boats like the Lagoon 55, 57, 67 and 67S, and similar boats from other manufacturers of the same era, when they still made good quality yachts, and before they started turning out rubbish. And pretty much any of the older larger Privileges would be suitable for you too.

:

Certainly Millon dollar AUD boats
20 year old Priv 585 are $750,000USD which is $1,052000 aud
But, it does start getting into the size and comfort level that would satisfy our needs and wants.

[Pelagic]

https://youtu.be/F1duV3nmLJ8
That Indigo 3 is an incredible boat but too much for just a couple to sail at high speeds.

A performer like that to average 16knts , needs a dedicated crew, whereas we want comfort and privacy for just the two of us, with occasional guests and one crew..

So while we are all tempted by high speeds under sail, how practical is it for your average sailing couple?

Speed wears you down
Mistakes are costly and dangerous
Avoidance of flotsam at speed is harder.

I would not be so relaxed doing above 14 knots, as I would averaging 7 knots

So for just a couple, on either a mono or a cat, I think average speed for comfort and sustainability should be about the same.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

https://youtu.be/F1duV3nmLJ8
That Indigo 3 is an incredible boat

Nice haircut there as well
Was $879 and now $645 ($905aud) and under contract
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...n-67s-8052822/

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

https://youtu.be/F1duV3nmLJ8
That Indigo 3 is an incredible boat but too much for just a couple to sail at high speeds.

A performer like that to average 16knts , needs a dedicated crew, whereas we want comfort and privacy for just the two of us, with occasional guests and one crew..

So while we are all tempted by high speeds under sail, how practical is it for your average sailing couple?

Speed wears you down
Mistakes are costly and dangerous
Avoidance of flotsam at speed is harder.

I would not be so relaxed doing above 14 knots, as I would averaging 7 knots

So for just a couple, on either a mono or a cat, I think average speed for comfort and sustainability should be about the same.

Well, yes and no.

Yes to most of the points when wanting average speeds in the high teens.

But you need to look at it a different way. And always focus on the 'easily driven' mantra - which can be difficult for monohull only people.

A boat that can do those speeds, with waterline length and easily driven, can be throttled back and average 10kn instead of 16kn - and 10kn all day long, day in day out, without stressing the boat or the crew.

10kn is much harder to average on ocean passges than many try to claim.

This is the benefit of the longer 'bigger' boats - they start to do these speeds as part of their normal sailing life.

So let's also not forget that multihulls are easily driven and speed is achieved much more easily than on a monohull. 10kn+ in your boat will feel like launching the space shuttle, with so much energy and force being exerted, and it can maybe start to feel quite scary, whereas by comparison on a big performance cat you barely feel it (really, you would need to check the instruments to be sure) - sea state notwithstanding.

And in general if you read around, most cat sailors when cruising as a couple seem to mention 10kn a lot. Because even if their boat is faster, above that can become uncomfortable in a sea state or less than ideal conditions. But if you have ideal conditions, or you need to run from/to something, you know you can dial up more performance if necessary or for a nice day's run.

Also these bigger cats start to have some displacement too. Yes they may still be much lighter than a comparable monohull, but they are starting to be heavy enough to start and offer more comfort as far as motion is concerned, both at sea as well as at anchor.

That is something with smaller lighter cats, they do tend to dance around quite a lot, even at anchor. If you are used to it maybe it's ok. But if you come from a 65ft heavy displacement mono you will feel every ripple on the water and that will feel odd initially. But it does kep you 'in tune' to what is going on around you.

In addition, a big cat does so many of the other points so well. You can carry a large tender, in convenient but safe davits, even at sea. You can fit a large cockpit hardtop without it looking weird, and you can add a lot of solar with very little trouble (possibly also ditching one or both of the gensets if we use Zatara type boats as an example)

Then there is all the built in redundancy of having (or more easily being able to have) two of everything.

Plus, even though it may seem diametrically opposed when going for a boat that sails better - most cats also make good motor boats too, because of their easily driven hulls.

I would say that the biggest negative for you when making a comparison, given what you are used to on your own boat as well as your superyacht experience (and mine too), is the engine room and technical spaces. Since the space is halved with two hulls this can seem small and poorly arranged on many cats until you get to quite a big size.

This is why I mentioned Zatara's lazarette. Because it's quite something when you get to that type of volume. It's huge down there (although the engines themselves are still in the interior).

I think you might get quite annoyed down in the engine 'compartment' (read, small useless box) of some smaller and/or more high performance boats

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Nice haircut there as well
Was $879 and now $645 ($905aud) and under contract
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...n-67s-8052822/

Yeah there are still some things that I don't like on that boat (or let's say "are not my first preference"), but it was ripe for bargain hunting.

Someone will get a HUGE amount of boat for whatever they end up paying.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Maybe things are different elsewhere, but Cats just haven't caught on on my home port of Santa Cruz. Excepting Beach cats and A Cats, there are only half a dozen cats in the harbor, and on a given day there will be more than 10 mono's out sailing for every cat.

We have Wed nite beer can races in the summer, for bragging rights with no handicaps. The only cats near the front have been A cats and a 24 footer which was owned and sailed by two pro sailers . The 24 footer only competed in serious racing on a couple of occasions when I overrode my safety concerns to encourage participation on the basis that the were experts. They stopped racing after a season , partly because the boat was scary overpowered.
We are next door to silicon Valley, so there is no shortage of money, but all our raceboats are mono's over 20 years old So we just don't have the experience of cats with windows and beds blasting by mono's. You all are welcome to drop by and show us.

Well you are there, but as I recall there isn't much space/side-ties available in Santa Cruz for multihulls, is there? And I recall lots of folks seriously into racing there which is usually a mono thing too as you say.

[jmh2002]

@Simi60

This is maybe not the thread for it but I'm not opposed to motor boats either and have done a lot of years on them (slow and fast), but for ocean crossings they were mostly in a larger size category. I do however follow what goes on in the trawler world a bit out of interest (or even not trawlers, such as power cats, FPB type, etc), and had some questions about your type of boat (ie: actual converted trawler and therefore heavy displacement).

Have you actually done any proper ocean passages with your boat yet? I mean maybe out into the pacific and back for example? And with any heavy weather?

That is the one thing I'm not sure about - really how stable and comfortable a tall monohull trawler type cruiser is, and especially when it all goes wrong weather wise.

I have some misgivings from general personal experience (but as I said not specifically on your type of boat in bad offshore conditions) but I'd like to hear your point of view (especially since you have come from both sailing boats and cats too).

Also monohulls tend to roll around, and monohull motor boats even worse so. Does your boat also have stablisers fitted? Paravanes? Flopper stoppers? How does she run without them?

And what's your fuel capacity and range? What is the draft?

The other positive points about your boat I don't need convincing on - I already see, know, and understand them - and it's all good stuff

Thanks

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

@Simi60

This is maybe not the thread for it but I'm not opposed to motor boats either and have done a lot of years on them (slow and fast), but for ocean crossings they were mostly in a larger size category. I do however follow what goes on in the trawler world a bit out of interest (or even not trawlers, such as power cats, FPB type, etc), and had some questions about your type of boat (ie: actual converted trawler and therefore heavy displacement).

Have you actually done any proper ocean passages with your boat yet? I mean maybe out into the pacific and back for example? And with any heavy weather?

That is the one thing I'm not sure about - really how stable and comfortable a tall monohull trawler type cruiser is, and especially when it all goes wrong weather wise.

I have some misgivings from general personal experience (but as I said not specifically on your type of boat in bad offshore conditions) but I'd like to hear your point of view (especially since you have come from both sailing boats and cats too).

Also monohulls tend to roll around, and monohull motor boats even worse so. Does your boat also have stablisers fitted? Paravanes? Flopper stoppers? How does she run without them?

And what's your fuel capacity and range?
:

We haven't done an ocean passage to other countries yet but have been 60nm offshore in developed 30 knots

No stabilisers, no paravanes ( but investigating) and yes she does roll if you get her in the wrong angle, but course change and increase in speed (+100 rpm) does sort that out quite a bit.
BUT if going down to deck level, the rolling "feels" very reduced, but we have no lower helm.
Not ideal but very manageable and, for the cost of naid stabilisers, we could probable run off course for 25,000 nm

Fuel capacity 7000 litres/1850 gallons.
Range around 3500nm @ 1150rpm & 7.5 knots

[jmh2002]

Thanks, is this the same as your boat? Or, the same hull but maybe different superstructure?

https://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/detail/...trawler-304100

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Thanks, is this the same as your boat? Or, the same hull but maybe different superstructure?

https://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/detail/...trawler-304100

That is her.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

That is her.

Sweet She hits a lot of positive points in that type of price range.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Well, yes and no.



Yes to most of the points when wanting average speeds in the high teens.



But you need to look at it a different way. And always focus on the 'easily driven' mantra - which can be difficult for monohull only people.



A boat that can do those speeds, with waterline length and easily driven, can be throttled back and average 10kn instead of 16kn - and 10kn all day long, day in day out, without stressing the boat or the crew.



10kn is much harder to average on ocean passges than many try to claim.



This is the benefit of the longer 'bigger' boats - they start to do these speeds as part of their normal sailing life.



So let's also not forget that multihulls are easily driven and speed is achieved much more easily than on a monohull. 10kn+ in your boat will feel like launching the space shuttle, with so much energy and force being exerted, and it can maybe start to feel quite scary, whereas by comparison on a big performance cat you barely feel it (really, you would need to check the instruments to be sure) - sea state notwithstanding.



And in general if you read around, most cat sailors when cruising as a couple seem to mention 10kn a lot. Because even if their boat is faster, above that can become uncomfortable in a sea state or less than ideal conditions. But if you have ideal conditions, or you need to run from/to something, you know you can dial up more performance if necessary or for a nice day's run.



Also these bigger cats start to have some displacement too. Yes they may still be much lighter than a comparable monohull, but they are starting to be heavy enough to start and offer more comfort as far as motion is concerned, both at sea as well as at anchor.



That is something with smaller lighter cats, they do tend to dance around quite a lot, even at anchor. If you are used to it maybe it's ok. But if you come from a 65ft heavy displacement mono you will feel every ripple on the water and that will feel odd initially. But it does kep you 'in tune' to what is going on around you.



In addition, a big cat does so many of the other points so well. You can carry a large tender, in convenient but safe davits, even at sea. You can fit a large cockpit hardtop without it looking weird, and you can add a lot of solar with very little trouble (possibly also ditching one or both of the gensets if we use Zatara type boats as an example)



Then there is all the built in redundancy of having (or more easily being able to have) two of everything.



Plus, even though it may seem diametrically opposed when going for a boat that sails better - most cats also make good motor boats too, because of their easily driven hulls.



I would say that the biggest negative for you when making a comparison, given what you are used to on your own boat as well as your superyacht experience (and mine too), is the engine room and technical spaces. Since the space is halved with two hulls this can seem small and poorly arranged on many cats until you get to quite a big size.



This is why I mentioned Zatara's lazarette. Because it's quite something when you get to that type of volume. It's huge down there (although the engines themselves are still in the interior).



I think you might get quite annoyed down in the engine 'compartment' (read, small useless box) of some smaller and/or more high performance boats

It's like you read my mind !

All good points that I completely understand with the 2 key ones being:

1.. Ergonomics for Machinery?

2...Comfort in moderate Seas in an 'Above the Beam Reach' if you throttle down to 7 knots?

The Ying and Yang of Displacement on a large Cat is what I'm trying to get my comparative hands around.

.....even if you throttle down to 7 knots, which is generally my trip average including motorsailing, how does it feel?