Why do you guys like monohulls so much?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

It's like you read my mind !

All good points that I completely understand with the 2 key ones being:

1.. Ergonomics for Machinery?

2...Comfort in moderate Seas in an 'Above the Beam Reach' if you throttle down to 7 knots?

The Ying and Yang of Displacement on a large Cat is what I'm trying to get my comparative hands around.

.....even if you throttle down to 7 knots, which is generally my trip average including motorsailing, how does it feel?

LOL. having seen a lot of your other posts I think I get where you are coming from

1: Ergonomics for Machinery.

Can be poor(ish) in the smaller performance cats. Although to be fair they aren't really much worse than a smaller monohull which is often also quite poor. 'Charter' cats have higher volume hulls in a smaller size so more space for everything, but then they don't really sail worth a damn.

Once you get to the bigger sizes of better sailing cats it becomes acceptable enough but perhaps still different than what you are accustomed to on a large monohull. I think then it's about looking at specific layouts on specific boats and sizes to find what you prefer better.

2: Comfort in moderate Seas in an 'Above the Beam Reach' if you throttle down to 7 knots?

I think it's still more acceptable than most monohulls and in most conditions you will be able to do 8-9kn instead of 7kn if we are talking about a bigger cat. Moderate seas are not really an issue, the problem with the sea state and cats becomes launching off waves, no different to faster monohulls or indeed motor boats, and this is all very dependant on the very particular sea state, wave shape, and angle. Change any of those and it becomes tolerable.

Close reaching and slowing down is a good for a lot of cats to ease the motion if still wanting to go in an upwind direction but not bash yourself to death if the sea state is bad. Most mono hulls do the same so nothing really lost there.

The motion is still different on the cat, but you are not heeled over which makes an enormous difference living aboard in those conditions, especially for ocean passages. Your particular boat is an exception at 65ft, long keel, and heavy displacement and it's difficult to equate to that. But you also trade off a lot of other points with your style of boat.

As far as you personally trying to understand the bigger heavier catamaran motion in those conditions I would say think smaller displacement monohull motoryacht - the boat still moves around when it's rough, up and down and side to side, and you generally still need to use handholds when moving about inside and out, and if you are up forward in the crew quarters or up on the bow you can definitely feel it, and there may be some leaping and slamming too relative to boat speed (so, slow down and/or change angle).

Most people seem to forget that most monohulls don't exactly have a 'magic carpet' ride upwind in bad conditions either. Mostly it can also be unpleasant, PLUS being heeled over, as well as slow progress too... And it's why most cruisers try to avoid a slog upwind in any boat (and even in most superyachts, most will also not purposely go out to punch into a strong head sea and wind if it can be avoided, right?).

3: The Ying and Yang of Displacement on a large Cat is what I'm trying to get my comparative hands around.

Use something like the Privilege 585 Zatara as a base line (because I don't think you are an Outremer cat type of customer) then think if this is enough volume for you?

If yes, then great, problem solved

If yes, but you want more performance (without losing any total volume) then you need to go for a similar style, but bigger

If no, then you still need to go bigger

Probably you can find the sweet spot somewhere there in the high 50s to low 60s size for this type of catamaran and get a reasonable balance of second hand price, displacement, interior volume, payload capacity, and sailing ability.

A Privilege 585 is not considered very fast in catamaran land. In fact it's considered to be fat, heavy, and slow for it's size by cat enthusiasts (who mostly prefer slim, light, and fast) - because it's much higher volume and very well constructed. But it's still a better boat, and a better sailing boat than the average charter type catamaran. And we are comparing it high volume monohulls, not other lighter, faster (and lower volume) cats. And for another point of comparison I think this comparatively 'fat, heavy, slow' catamaran will still out sail your boat in almost all conditions.

Privilege don't even make a boat like that any more as they have added fly bridges to all their models and for me that is just a step too far. The space that it offers is great, but it detracts from sailing ability enormously.

So look up older similar boats and see what you think. The Lagoon 57 (also available in a faster 'S' model), Lagoon 570 (newer), Fountaine Pajot Marquises 56, Fountaine Pajot Eleuthera 60, etc, etc...

A member here called Palarran (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ran-10385.html) has a Fountaine Pajot Marquises 56 and can tell you all about it. It was/is for sale.

Hope that helps




PS: the next question will be centreboards or fixed mini 'keels'. Although most of the cats of the type and generation we are talking about are fixed mini keels so it will kind of answer itself. They tend to draw 5-6ft.

Also I am maybe derailing this thread a bit, so to not upset the monohull enthusiasts too much more feel free to PM me if you prefer

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Also I am maybe derailing this thread a bit, so to not upset the monohull enthusiasts too much more feel free to PM me if you prefer

Egads No! Thread drifts are akin to chatting at the bar at the club, it's entirely natural. Personally, I love thread drifts, you get to find out all sorts of things and its usually all about sailing anyway.
So you go for it JMH!

Regards,
A monohull enthusiast.

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Close reaching and slowing down is a good for a lot of cats to ease the motion if still wanting to go in an upwind direction but not bash yourself to death if the sea state is bad. Most mono hulls do the same so nothing really lost there.

A monohull comparison for the fun of it.
In crappy conditions such as short, sharp, big seas, I find the most unpleasant angle to be pinching/close hauled (40' mono with a bit of a beam). The wave action wraps around the hull and causes more drag, you're dropping into the troughs with a bang and because your close hauled you don't have enough horsepower to get out of it.
But if you crack off a few degrees, you generate enough lift to speed up and smooth everything out. The bow stops falling into the troughs and all of a sudden you find yourself enjoying the experience again, instead of wincing every wave set.
VMG will be higher cracked off anyway, as you'll be nowhere near your polars in those conditions. Going up and down more than you go forward is never that efficient, nor is it fun .
A skinny canoe hull will be different of course, beamy monos feel more like a cat in many ways!
Cheers!

[Budawang]

I've owned both and one wasn't better than the other. They're just different, but overall I prefer monos. Advantages of my current 1999 Westerly 43 mono over my previous 2009 FP Lavezzi cat:

1. Sturdier boat better suited to Bluewater sailing. Higher quality boat including nicer interior trim/fittings and overall better equiped for little more than half the purchase cost of the Lavezzi. Basically much more boat for your buck.
2. Magnificent aft stateroom with semi-walkaround queen sized berth compared to more cramped crawl-over berths on the Lavezzi.
3. More comfortable motion in a seaway with slow rolling compared to tiring jerky lateral motion of the cat. Big plus: my wife doesn't get as easily seasick.
4. Much quieter under sail compared to the creaking bulkheads and rushing water sound under the cat's bridge deck.
5. Considerably cheaper to insure. Cheaper to maintain, berth and haul out.
6. More aesthetically pleasing to sail: you feel the boat respond to the wind rather than just having to stare anxiously at the wind gauge and praying you don't get hit by a micro burst
7. With good maintenance the Westerly will age better than the cat and may ultimately retain more value.
8. Less risk of costly structural problems like detached bulkheads (the Lavezzi developed alarming gelcoat cracks around the saloon table due to slamming).

Cats of course excel at anchor which is why they're so popular. In a nutshell I'd say that monos often appeal more to people who really love to sail and appreciate the aesthetics and romance of it, while non-performance cats are great for people who love living on the water in warm climates, are highly sociable and like inviting people on board but aren't passionate about sailing.

[double u]

no "enthusiast" either way, just of suit- & affordable bluewaterboats, easily managed by couple.
@affordable: everything else (age, condition, equipment,...) being the same, same budget, same payload: very hard to beat a monohull, very hard. plus: vastly greater choice of boats
@manageable: the comparative equanimity with which one sails through a night laced with tropical rainsqualls on a mono as compared on a mutihull...translated into the car-world: going fast on a winding country road in an understeering car(monohull) versus a nervous oversteering one (cat): one is very exciting & maybe faster, but definitely less of a "relaxed ride" than in the understeerer...if the cat "gets away from you" the situation is much more serious than if the mono does...
in a rolly anchorage the situation differs of course

[jmh2002]

@Pelagic: sent you a PM recently, not sure if you received it?

Cheers

[bailsout]

I love wooden boats. Not many options in the multihull venue.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by bailsout

I love wooden boats. Not many options in the multihull venue.

Not so there are some beautiful wood multis


https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/81744

[bailsout]

Tupaia, I agree to that, but there aren’t many and none near me. And even fewer that are not of plywood or cold-molded.

[smj]

Our old constant camber cold molded cat.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by bailsout

Tupaia, I agree to that, but there aren’t many and none near me. And even fewer that are not of plywood or cold-molded.

What's the problem you have with cold moulded?

[TeddyDiver]

Or strip planked, as many Schionnings..

[double u]

Originally Posted by newhaul

What's the problem you have with cold moulded?

...just a spelling problem...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by double u

...just a spelling problem...

agreed molded

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by river251

Every time I notice it, there are twice as many people reading the monohulls forum as reading the multihulls forum. I am really curious about this. Cats have what everyone wants, supposedly....no rolling (youtubers Kevin Boothby and Patrick Lane constantly talk about how tiring and unpleasant this is), things stay put, relatively more room. A non-tilted, non-rolling, roomy lifestyle. So what is the attraction of monohulls?

Think you missed off 'that look back factor' as you row away. If you wonder how big this thing is, my boom is below the level of the deck.