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Old 20-10-2018, 09:24   #271
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Whilst I agree in general with Wax comments, there's something to be said for size. It does matter. There's nothing more comfortable than confort. A larger boat will afford you more of that overall, and small items of it suddenly acquire a significance beyond expectations when sailing. Larger boats are also designed and built to take more punishment, and cope with more challenging conditions. Larger also means faster for comparable designs. You can run away from weather, which will come handy. If not "buy the largest", certainly buy the best you can afford. Financially, what you do not spend in purchase price, you will spend in outfitting and upgrades. When budgetting, double your purchase price and you'll be closer to the total budget required to leave the doc.
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Old 20-10-2018, 10:20   #272
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Whilst I agree in general with Wax comments, there's something to be said for size. It does matter.
Yes, size means more comfort. But you can happily cruise on a small boat on a limited budget. And the advantage is that you are much closer to the elements.
Wind feels stronger, waves feel higher The relief after having weathered a gale is bigger. It is easier to become one with the sea.

30 years ago we cruised without most of the stuff we take for granted today. No generator, solar panels, GPS, plotters, autopilots, fridge, freezer, EPIRB, satcom, cellphones, water maker, life raft, bimini top, weather routing ...... . And we never missed it.

Basically you need a boat about big enough to carry provisions and water for the length of your trip, sturdily built, and equipped with good steering gear, rigging, sails and a dinghy with oars.
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Old 20-10-2018, 11:02   #273
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Ok so I'm the author of the "5-95%" rule. Guilty as charged!. So this comes from my sailing and from looking at boats, what they do and where they go. Like others, I have my preference for the type of boat I like and others may differ, but what stays the same , is how we use the boats.

Whether it's a heavy long keeler or a "plastic" fin keel that blasts along, the way we use them is the same and in my years in sailing, we spend as little time getting to where we're going and most enjoying destination.

For example - At rest we spend most of our time in the cockpit - If that's the case then why get a boat with a tiny cockpit thats "a great sea-going cockpit, safe as houses" etc etc , when what you really want a big cockpit that's flexible and open while bolt upright, where you can walk through without disturbing anyone and where you can lie out and enjoy the sun.

There's a reason why modern boats have big social areas and flexible layouts. Designers have looked at how we use them, the traffic areas and so on, and built the boats to suit. That's also why these boats are big hits with their owners.

Now I understand why some people like the full keel, heavy displacement boats and tiny cockpits. Each to their own - It's not my thing but and I never would own one but I understand there's a market for them. However they are a hell of a compromise when it comes to how we use them.

My comment on getting the biggest boat you can afford was really about getting one a little bigger than you think you need. Space is always a premium on boats and you'll use more than you think. If you can get bigger and not blow your initial or your ongoing maintenance budget then I would always go a little bigger (and bigger also means more speed, less time exposed at sea etc)

my 2 cents (Euros that is)
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Old 20-10-2018, 14:15   #274
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

"When budgetting, double your purchase price and you'll be closer to the total budget required to leave the doc."

True this statement.

Also look at Caliber 33-35. Very strong and well built boats.
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Old 20-10-2018, 14:32   #275
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

One that gets you there and back safely,
No matter what size it is, or type,
Horses for courses,
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Old 23-10-2021, 10:06   #276
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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I consider blue-water boats as vessels outfitted to sail in warm / tropical regions around the Equator (Caribbean, Australia, Pacific islands). They are very basic outfitted for bare foot sailing and island hopping.

The opposite to the blue-water boats would be more rigid constructions (aluminum, steel) capable to sail the cold waters / roaring 40's, Greenland, north passage, Magellan strait, North Europe (Norway, Iceland), Canada, Alaska, Tasmania, South polar region etc. They would have furnaces instead of A/C installed and much better foul weather protection and insulation.
Oh my goodness, seriously?

Apart from the fact that Australia and the Pacific Islands are not exactly around the equator, it is exactly the other way round.

Bluewater boats are heavily constructed, sturdy vessels that are designed to withstand rough conditions on long offshore passages. They are usually more sea kindly and their heaviness creates less motion and heel. They are less performant, yet way more comfortable offshore.

All this has nothing to do with how warm a region is. You can hit a Mistral or Scirocco with 40kn and 6m waves in the middle of the Mediterranean summer, not to mention just normal gales/storms that may occur nearly anywhere offshore every day.

THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERION nearly all bluewater boats have in common is a full keel or a long fin keel with a skeg rudder. A broken rudder is the #1 reason for offshore voyages to end pretty abruptly (as most have no emergency tiller in place) and the loss of the keel is the #1 reason for fatal accidents. Hundreds of light-weight production boats with their modern narrow fin keels (or wing keels or bulb keels) plus fragile spade rudders have just lost their boats or even their lives when going offshore and hitting high seas or a medium size whale.

There are more criteria, of course. Wide side decks with lots of handrails, all weather bunks, huge fuel and freshwater tanks, long range communication... and more.
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Old 23-10-2021, 10:08   #277
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERION nearly all bluewater boats have in common is a full keel or a long fin keel with a skeg rudder. A broken rudder is the #1 reason for offshore voyages to end pretty abruptly (as most have no emergency tiller in place) and the loss of the keel is the #1 reason for fatal accidents. Hundreds of light-weight production boats with their modern narrow fin keels (or wing keels or bulb keels) plus fragile spade rudders have just lost their boats or even their lives when going offshore and hitting high seas or a medium size whale.
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Old 23-10-2021, 10:16   #278
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Quote:
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...THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERION nearly all bluewater boats have in common is a full keel or a long fin keel with a skeg rudder. A broken rudder is the #1 reason for offshore voyages to end pretty abruptly (as most have no emergency tiller in place) and the loss of the keel is the #1 reason for fatal accidents. Hundreds of light-weight production boats with their modern narrow fin keels (or wing keels or bulb keels) plus fragile spade rudders have just lost their boats or even their lives when going offshore and hitting high seas or a medium size whale...
Exactly where did you learn this hogwash?
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Old 23-10-2021, 10:40   #279
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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Originally Posted by mibo View Post
Oh my goodness, seriously?

Apart from the fact that Australia and the Pacific Islands are not exactly around the equator, it is exactly the other way round.

Bluewater boats are heavily constructed, sturdy vessels that are designed to withstand rough conditions on long offshore passages. They are usually more sea kindly and their heaviness creates less motion and heel. They are less performant, yet way more comfortable offshore.

All this has nothing to do with how warm a region is. You can hit a Mistral or Scirocco with 40kn and 6m waves in the middle of the Mediterranean summer, not to mention just normal gales/storms that may occur nearly anywhere offshore every day.

THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERION nearly all bluewater boats have in common is a full keel or a long fin keel with a skeg rudder. A broken rudder is the #1 reason for offshore voyages to end pretty abruptly (as most have no emergency tiller in place) and the loss of the keel is the #1 reason for fatal accidents. Hundreds of light-weight production boats with their modern narrow fin keels (or wing keels or bulb keels) plus fragile spade rudders have just lost their boats or even their lives when going offshore and hitting high seas or a medium size whale.

There are more criteria, of course. Wide side decks with lots of handrails, all weather bunks, huge fuel and freshwater tanks, long range communication... and more.
Right.
But to be a little more accurate, there are hundreds or more non “blue water” boats crossing oceans in the typical offshore waters and harsh elements and they survive. Mainly due to better sailors, way more careful weather routing planning and in general taking reduced challenges. In many or most cases these vessels are much less fun to cruise with when the conditions develop but they still make it. So part of the ongoing compromises in selecting a boat.

And over all that, guess there are fewer sailors fully dedicated to blue water cruising. So the majority consider also the convenience of coastal and day sailing in a growing share of their sailing time. - hence certain compromises including the much higher cost of a blue water cruiser.
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Old 23-10-2021, 11:23   #280
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Hi DeValency,
I fully agree.
Of course "non-blue-water-boats" cross oceans and we see many more of those at major hubs than "blue water boats". What I posted was just a try to explain what the (undefined) term "blue water boat" would actually mean, as I came across that totally swirled post on top of the whole thread while doing some research for an article. The cost point is also a huge one, no doubt.
If you like, you may want to watch this interview with Dick Beaumont (Kraken). It is long but worth watching
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Old 23-10-2021, 11:36   #281
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

On boats there is the stuff that’s makes you safe, the stuff that makes you go and the stuff that makes you comfortable. And now for the gross generalization with more than a grain of truth to it. For a given size, the blue water cruiser makes sacrifices in the third to optimize the first and, to a lesser extent, second,; the racer, daysailer and weekender optimizes the second at the expense of the other two; and the coastal cruiser sacrifices the first and, to a lesser extent the second, to optimize the first. The larger the boat the less sacrifices required for a given program.

For example, a bluewater/ocean monohull cruiser won’t have an exaggerated beam and interior with wide open spaces, as the former reduces the ability of a loaded boat to make to windward against a steep head sea under sail or power (previous AWB owner speaking from experience) and the latter increases the risk of crew injuries. At every juncture where a design or equiping decision like the above is made, the manufacturer and then the owner will give precedence to the stuff that keeps you safe and then the stuff that makes you go on a blue water boat.

I bought my boat for 200000 euro, I have since spent 60000 euro upgrading her and plan to spend another 40000. Hardly a euro of that has been spent on comfort items. I have replaced stuff that broke in the comfort department and fixed stuff myself but that is it.
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Old 23-10-2021, 11:45   #282
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

There is also a 4th category that I forgot: the stuff that makes you look good. But everyone optimizes that to the extent it doesn’t interfere with the previous prioritization. I have even spent some money on this myself. Pride of ownership and all.
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Old 23-10-2021, 11:59   #283
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

While I'm inclined for the traditional heavier displacement boat as true "blue water" boat, the definition is line in the water. I'd like to classify boats by their capacities, like a 6bunk boat, fill the strorages and tanks, neatly manner without canisters and stuff all over the place and count how long cruise you can do with all crew aboard and conclude this is 2weeks boat or whatever. A bluewater boat is one you can sail over an ocean without "overloading" or running out of supplies..
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Old 23-10-2021, 12:43   #284
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

Hejsan,
not sure about the missing exaggerated beam and open space interior on "blue water boats", but I guess those are rather personal preferences. Anyway, it looks like you are happy with your boat :-)
Just to say it once again, I was not posting any kind of boat choice advice or personal preference. I just tried to clarify the MEANING of "blue water boat", as I found that totally swirled post at the outset.
Nevertheless, a question: Couldn't high quality "blue water boats" from Hallberg-Rassy, Tayana, Pearson, Lafitte, Stevens, Contessa, Wauquiez, Sparkman & Stevens..... maybe cause less update cost and, hence, even be the better financial choice in the long term? What's your opinion?
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Old 23-10-2021, 12:54   #285
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Re: What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

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While I'm inclined for the traditional heavier displacement boat as true "blue water" boat, the definition is line in the water. I'd like to classify boats by their capacities, like a 6bunk boat, fill the strorages and tanks, neatly manner without canisters and stuff all over the place and count how long cruise you can do with all crew aboard and conclude this is 2weeks boat or whatever. A bluewater boat is one you can sail over an ocean without "overloading" or running out of supplies..
Interesting. So it's all about the range? May I ask if you have ever crossed an ocean?
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