What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

I think Kittiwake are selling their Hirondelle (or is it a Prout?) for this sort of money. These boats have (very carefully!) made some ocean miles over the years.

Heavenly Twins 26


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/heavenly-twins

[dcorbert]

if you see a Prairie 32' for sale she will fit your bill. Only 34 were built though ( in 1978/9), so somewhat of a rarity & most owners only sell them because they stop sailing or want a bigger boat. I have had mine for 25 yrs & am the 2nd owner. However if you want a boat with a big cockpit to entertain in: not for you.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by MartinR

disasters turn sailing into adventure

YA!!! that came out wrong..... 99% of the disasters that I experienced were disasters that happened to others. I had a few foul weather disasters but that's about it. Very little personal breakage on either circumnavigation.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by wingssail

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/columbia-36

I'm not really recommending the Columbia 36....... that was all that I could afford at the time and still have enough $ to bring the boat to "Like new" condition before leaving.

The most important modification that I made to that boat was converting the spade rudder to a skeg hung rudder. The spade rudder in that boat was not designed for heavy seas and the rudder shaft soon bent.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I would say it basically means "offshore", so design is pretty important , particularly referring to the boat's positive righting ability, strength of the rig, and cockpit design.

Coastal areas (I sailed the SF Bay for many years) get lots of 4' waves, but they don't get rogue waves; but out of only 3 offshore voyages, one experienced this. These will put a boat on it's ear, so the ability of the boat to right itself is key. There's a ratio (A/B ratio) that is used to determine a boat's righting ability. Race boats designed for inland waters have...I can't quite remember, but they don't score as high; they aren't designed for huge waves...

Secondly the cockpit/wetted deck design come into play to make the A/B ration worth a poop, pun intended. If a massive wave comes over the deck and completely poops the cockpit, will the water drain quickly enough, or are scuppers too small? Boats with huge cockpits (Pearson Commanders come to mind) may not handle this well, and if the cockpit lockers come up when the boat gets pooped and is on it's ear, then...you'll be sinking far enough off shore to where an EPIRB may not save you.

The rig also needs to be strong enough to handle storms that can come up quickly, without being so oversized it affects performance.

A full-keel boat isn't necessarily necessary, but before getting a sleek and fast fin-keeled boat, check the ratios and design, as well as the other features for living long periods at sea - crew arrangements and food/water/fuel storage.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by MartinR

I guess most things are already said in this thread.

... Westsail 32 ...

I would not overthink it, though. Buy a boat, sail and have fun. Doesn't need much money. Life is risky in itself. Better to live it while it lasts.

Thanks for that! This is where I stand right now. I'm expanding my search.

ON A SIDE NOTE! Today is the first day I started cleaning out my junk... in prep for vacating my apartment, and start searching for a boat. Moving is so much easier when 90% of your stuff is going into the trash!

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by Kanani

I'm not really recommending the Columbia 36....... that was all that I could afford at the time and still have enough $ to bring the boat to "Like new" condition before leaving.

The most important modification that I made to that boat was converting the spade rudder to a skeg hung rudder. The spade rudder in that boat was not designed for heavy seas and the rudder shaft soon bent.

Nice looking rudder conversion. Did you have it designed for you or is it your own design? Also, noticed your prop exiting the hull above the rudder. Does that create a steer problem when under power? Just curious.

[p435]

@bouncycastle wrote an excellent post and I take some of his points with me.


In this post I want to point to the German sailor Wilfried Erdmann who sailed around the world twice or three times. The last trip he made against the wind using again his 10.6m (35ft) sloop Kathena Nui. He sailed with always the minimum of what is needed.

[seadago]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well said,Teddy, but recall please that we entered into this discussion after it was asserted by more than one person ONLY a heavy, full keeled, boat can be called a "Blue water boat". THAT is a single dogma.

I would guess the designers, builders, and sailors of scandinavian longboats as well as long-range multihulls would vehemently disgree with such dogma.

Be it as it may, it does not help answering WingRyder's question.

As far as design elements are concerned, there is lots of excellent info on the web, and some trully expert advise available. "Expert" from the naval architectural perspective. Check www.boatdesign.net forums for starters. There are several 50-page threads on precisely this topic.

At the ver beginning of my investigation on blue-water water boats (and I WAS looking for long-range pasage makers), I read a classic: "Principles of Yatch Design" by Ralph Larsson and Rolf E Eliasson. Skip the heavier physics. You'll still learn tons on what makes a seawhorthy, confortable vessel design, and why some elements of it are more important than others. Worthwhile investing the time if so inclined.

[boatman61]

Just buy a Robert Perry boat and be done with it..
Opps.. Forgot..!!! You only have a limited budget.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Just buy a Robert Perry boat and be done with it..
Opps.. Forgot..!!! You only have a limited budget.

No, no. The Islander 32 or 36 should fit into the budget.

[seadago]

Alternatively, get a Freedom 35 CK. Better still, a Freedom 40. It'll be over your budget, but anything fit for what you want will be anyway, either in purchase price or additional invetment required.

Avantages:
Light boat (cored hull construction) and low ballast to displacement ratio, so will take considerable loading whilst keeping hull hydrodynamic properties.
Comparatively shallow draft (4'3") for LOA. Will get you to anchorages long fin keelers wont. Retractable centreboard for beating.
Low maintenance. No standing rigging.
Easy to manage single handed. Two sails -three in light airs- will get you everywhere. + one spare is all you need.
Beamy, lots and lots of room below deck.
Transom-hung rudder. Easy to fix/replace.
Won't win races close hauled, but very respectable performance in all other points of sail.
And it looks absolutely gorgeous. To me anyway!
Here's an account of crossing the Atlantic in one of those.
FreedomYachts.org • View topic - Gone Transatlantic

[MartinR]

Yes, Freedoms are great boats. Comfortable motion also.

[Wax]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

If you are doing the Atlantic run and the med you could basically use just about anything. My advice is get the biggest you can afford - Production or one-off, mono or cat.

Make sure it's sound (same with buying any boat) and well checked out.

One bit of advice - The object of cruising is not the passage. We sail from A to B in order to enjoy B. The piece (passage) in between is something you just have to do to get to B, and you should do it as quickly as possible. You will spend 5% of your sailing time doing the passages and 95% bolt upright in a marina or great anchorage, enjoying the boat and all the other things that we love about cruising.

So buy the boat that does the 95% great and the 5% just good enough.

I agree with the 95/5% approach but I disagree with the idea of buying the biggest you can afford (if you mean monitarily). While the $$$ to maintain seems to grow exponentiinally with vessel size there are other things to afford... one of our foremost rules is that we will never own a boat that can be easily single handed by either of us for long periods of time should the other be incapacitated.

I see the term bluewater boat as subjective. As others have stated, the choice will result in different vessels for different people. Ask five sailors get ten different answers. Research and ask questions. Listen, but think for yourself. What fits your fear/comfort ratio as others have also said.

We sailed a 1962 Herreshoff H-28 in Mexico then home to Washington via a 3000nm clipper route reaching out to around 900nm from shore. No dodger, no fridge, no ice box, no radar, no life raft, no roller furling, no chart plotter, no windlass, no dinghy outboard. New standing rigging, new carlin bolts, new running rigging. Well built full suit of sails. Yes on the SSB for us.

Personal choice. What fits your idea of safety. Whatever you take far offshore is your bluewater boat.

Strong is good. There are certain makes we would not consider for offshore use. Newport and Oday come to mind. There are others we just would never own even though they would make fine choices (in our opinion) for others. Beneteau, Jenneau, Hunter, Catalina. You’ll see many of these out there but some models would require structural upgrades to meet our personal standards. Then there are the ones touted as the best choices for offshore work such as westsail, island packet... the heavy, full keel, lots of storage, undercanvassed, “cruising boats”. They are great options for many but not to our liking.

We make our own choices. We go offshore rather than hugging the coast. We find comfort and safety in the open sea far away from rocks, fishing vessels, and shipping lanes. We had to heave to for the better pet of a day to dive on the H28 to recalls part of the garboard seam. It was a relief to have hundreds of miles of deep blue in any direction. Rocks are not our friend.

This time we bought a C&C 110, sailed her to WA from San Francisco via a mini clipper route. That trip ended up being 1500nm of clawing our way upwind. She pounds much more than a heavy boat would but her light displacement, large sail area, and deep draft fin keel mean she sails like a dream and can make way in 4knkts of wind or less. We experienced 35-40kt winds (gustingninto rhe low 40s) on the nose bringing her north. Some squalls poured hail instead of the usual rain.
She is built with vinylester resin and vacuum bagged hull layup.
We have just sailed south from WA to Southern California arriving yesterday to San Diego. Up north we happily danced over steep seas at 2-4mtrs through a full night of 35-40knots gusting into the mid 40s one night. The following night we ran with 47knots sustained for hours on end with gusts into the mid 50kt range. The seas were like walls at around 8-10 meters then they would curl and blow off into horizontal streaks of foam. Our racer cruiser handled the conditions elegantly. When they say cruiser in that regard they mean cruising for the weekend to get to the club races or maybe a week long adventure. We are gladly opting to give up the comfort for performance. We rounded Point Conception in 25-30 knot winds gusting to the low 30s with our heavy weather kite and the windvane.

Our new boat has: no exterior wood, no dodger, no life raft, yes Epirb, yes SSB, large sail area (but we can manage), deep fun keel, extendable bowsprit. We added a watermaker, golf cart batteries, tricolor, Hydrovane, Genoa sleeve, spinnaker socks, and will add solar and saltwater to the galley sink soon.

All running lines led aft, a large wheel, lots of sail trim controls, deep draft, and deep reefs are to our liking and make our escape pod sail like a 36’ dinghy. She is light and dances atop the waves like a dream! She is an upwind rocketship and slides easily in 3-4knkts of wind but she pounds hard to weather and can’t carry as much stuff.

Good luck as you hone in on your personal ideal. Chances are your ideals and desires will change over time and with experiencce.

[p435]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

.....

You will spend 5% of your sailing time doing the passages and 95% bolt upright in a marina or great anchorage, enjoying the boat and all the other things that we love about cruising.

So buy the boat that does the 95% great and the 5% just good enough.

In never thought bout the 5%/95% rule, which could be good rule of thumb.


I agree the statement of @B23iL23.



I had a discussion with my son and an old sailing friend. Both have never met but gave me the same answer: "Sporty sailing means a mono-hull, if you want space and comfort go for a catamaran." I raced in Japan thus only a real racer gives me the sporty challenge, but I don't want to spent years on a fast racer.



This made me decide to go for a catamaran. Taking the same LOA the price is 50-100% higher. When I saw the boat, I have know, it blew my already double catamaran budget by another 65%. However, the boat is made a much stronger and better designed impression compared to what I saw before. I felt in love within 10sec. Thus I negotiated the price down to not exceed 50% of my catamaran budget.



I had to do a lot on the boat and I am still working on it; try to do as much as possible myself to reduce costs. But when I take of next spring I feel I have the boat I need. Planned route: Med - Atlantic - Caribbean - Panama Canal - Southern Pacific to NZ - north to Japan - around Japan (an old dream because I sailed a lot there) Hawaii - North America - Panama Canal and back to Europe.


As EUROs count, I am also aware that I was very lucky that I could afford this boat.