Thoughts on capabilities of this...

[csdjng]

Hi all! New to this forum but have been reading along for quite some while. Thanks for that...

After a decade of running the corporate clock, it is time for a change of scenery. I am lucky enough to be able to do so, which means I'm currently in the market for a cruiser that will fit our needs. We are looking 50-55ft yachts that will bring us around the globe along the equatorial trade winds in a bit of comfort. Hoping to start somewhere in May 19 in the Mediterranean where we intend to stay up until November to catch a ride to the Caribbean. All is open after that.

I've been looking at several options; budget hovers around €250k for the hardware of this venture. Since we opt for the coconuts, there is not much need for a hard-core blue water cruiser; the scope is towards a bit more comfort since we might stay on board for a couple of years. Options that are being reviewed: Hanse 540, Beneteau 57 and a bit more outdated Atlantic 60.

Furthermore, in my many hours of window-shopping I stumbled across this listing as well: Yacht Marine - S/Y SERENITY 19 m

A couple of potential downsides: Its a custom with no track record and potentially worse (with all do respect); its Turkish built. On the other hand it looks like a rather solid (and heavily) build, well maintained and by the first looks of it, quite suitable for a lengthy trip.

How would you guys proceed? All options are on the table, and happy to review any suggestions you have. Since I'm not quite sure how to proceed, especially with this last option, all advice is highly appreciated!

[Don C L]

Welcome aboard csdjng! I have no idea about that particular boat though of course I will say get a survey if you still feel strongly about it after seeing it. I hope someone with experience with those boats and/or builder will chime in! There are quite a few folks here who can inform you on Hanses, Beneteaus and Atlantics though.

[JPA Cate]

csdjng,

Welcome aboard CF. Some straight talk follows:

I looked at the "about me" in your profile. It said, "Gender, male." Okay, how on earth do you suppose that someone who might give you feedback about boats could do so given so sparse information. Sorry, but a tradewinds circumnavigation as a goal, for a person who has never sailed before, nor maintained a boat......

No one can answer the question meaningfully with the lack of data you have given us. It is not that the more knowledgeable among us might like to try, but as it is, it's a no win situation.


Ann

[csdjng]

Dear JPA,

Thanks for your respons. I'm afraid your assumptions on an empty 'about me' section and this translating into zero experience are not quite accurate. But I appreciate any feedback and will try to add some details to this later. For your information, I have +20yrs of experience sailing a wide variety of mono hulls and sizes, ranging from light production boats (like the Hanse) to the more appreciated customs like Swans, Westerly's and Hallberg Rassy's. This includes a wide variety of weather and open water down the North Atlantic, North sea, Med's and the Scandinavian coasts.

My question was 2 folded: Firstly, I'm looking for advice from people with experience on the Hanse's, the Bene 57 or the Atlantic 60 in relation to my aforementioned itinerary and secondly, any advice whether or not to dig into the more exotic option which on first hand looks attractive and capable, but could prove to be a challenge later. And more specifically, how to approach such opportunity. Any guidance on the subject is appreciated!

Thanks!

[Suijin]

It looks well designed and built but short of you getting feedback from those with direct knowledge of the yard and the designer I don’t think you’ll get much useful feedback from us.

The pictures don’t reveal much other than the apparent finish quality. No sense of the space, the deck layout, how things are from a functional perspective.

I think you’ll have to go look at it in person to take the real measure of it, if you’re seriously interested. Pictures never tell the real story of a boats fitness for a given purpose.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by csdjng

Furthermore, in my many hours of window-shopping I stumbled across this listing as well: Yacht Marine - S/Y SERENITY 19 m

I think that boat merits a closer look! It looks like a terrific cruising boat with the hard dodger and protected steering station, comfortable cockpit, big engine room etc. Beautiful boat! I could even overlook the teak decks...

[SV Bacchus]

Holy Crap that is a nice, big boat! Exterior layout seems similar to the Super Maramu. I can't advise on the boat at all but my first impression is too much wood in the cockpit. That along with the teak decks would need a closer look by 1) yourself as you seem to have some background on vessels of this a caliber and 2) a surveyor, of course.

[skipmac]

On the listing it says the hull is epoxy laminated mahogany. I believe this means it is a boat built with strips of wood, saturated in epoxy and laid in up multiple layers not unlike layers of fiberglass. If I recall this is how Ann and Jim Cate's boat is built.

So not exactly like a regular wood boat and my understanding the epoxy saturation eliminates 99% of the problems with standard wood hulls BUT it is a wood boat and unless you find a buyer looking for this type of construction might impact resale down the road. There are advantages reported to this construction, sound and temperature insulating qualities of wood without the downsides is one that comes to mind. I think Ann could offer some opinions on the hull. However there is a LOT of wood on the deck which translates into a LOT of maintenance.

Finally, these boats are usually one off so the quality will completely depend on the skill and effort from the builder.

Could be a gem but I would proceed with caution.

[MV Wanderlust]

Man, that is one pretty boat!

[boatman61]

I would not overstress the Turkish B/Y... they have skills long lost in the W and hand built/cut is more often the order of the day.. likely the build was supervised throughout.. Germans are efficient.
Turkey has a bad rap because of the cheap Charter Gulets built to a price for one purpose.. and its not sailing.
As for the designer.. he seems well regarded in SuperYachtTimes and Boat International..
She is a beaut.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by JohnEasley

Man, that is one pretty boat!

Yes indeed. Boat porn of the highest caliber.

[csdjng]

Thanks a lot for all your feedback! I'm going to read in to the concept of epoxy laminated mahogany a bit more. I'm surely no expert on that subject.

One other thing that worries me a bit is that it shows 32t of displacement, and its engine (268hp) proves it needs quite a bit of power to propel it through the water. Compared to a Super Maramu (16m, 16t) or Amel 55 (17,4m, 21t), I wonder if it will pick up speed under sail at all?

However, I fully agree it looks absolutely stunning. I will continue to look for red flags, I would like to maintain a rational position at this point, but if I don't find enough, I might have to drop by somewhere next month for a visit...

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by csdjng

Thanks a lot for all your feedback! I'm going to read in to the concept of epoxy laminated mahogany a bit more. I'm surely no expert on that subject.

One other thing that worries me a bit is that it shows 32t of displacement, and its engine (268hp) proves it needs quite a bit of power to propel it through the water. Compared to a Super Maramu (16m, 16t) or Amel 55 (17,4m, 21t), I wonder if it will pick up speed under sail at all?

However, I fully agree it looks absolutely stunning. I will continue to look for red flags, I would like to maintain a rational position at this point, but if I don't find enough, I might have to drop by somewhere next month for a visit...

We have a 1984 Camper & Nicholson58, 40 tons loaded. It’s a nice ride and was built as a trade winds reacher. 10-12 knots on a reach is normal. There were not many made but occasionally hit the market. The Amels are nice boats. Many on the Amel dock in Marin, Martinique.

[dfelsent]

As an owner of an older custom build I think that there is something to be said about the yard’s reputation. Some builders have poor reputations. Some have excellent reputations. This changes over time as well.

If you can find out a bit about the rep of the yard that built her it will help focus your thinking a bit.

In my case an excellent reputation let me set aside the concerns about a one off and focus on general condition and maintenance history.

[Jim Cate]

FWIW:

There are two general types of wood/epoxy construction, usually called either strip plank or cold molded (and the latter in some areas is called triple diagonal). Strip planking (as in our own boat) is small strakes (ours are 25x25 mm Western Red Cedar) laid horizontally, often edge nailed, and each glued to its neighboring strake with epoxy. There are often nternal ring frames and bulkheads to strengthen the structure. A keelson or other strongback is usually included to attach the keel and support the engine and mast loads. Glass is applied inside and out in fairly thin layers, with additional layers in high stress areas.

The cold molded hull is made up of several layers of relatively thin (4-8 mm) veneers, cut in widths of 100-300 mm and applied at an angle to each other and again glued with epoxy in between layers. Glass outside and usually inside as in strip planking.

Both are well researched methods and either can produce extremely strong and stiff hulls. VArious timbers are used, and "mahogany" being a poorly defined term, I'm not sure how to evaluate its usage here. As someone else suggested, the reputation of the builder is a clue, and more detailed info on the construction would be useful to you.

The finish work looks very good, and that is a hopeful sign in general. Indeed a lovely boat, one far more attractive to me than any of the other designs you've mentioned. The very large engine is kinda odd, but may reflect the original owners personal prejudices and the design brief given the designer. Tankage is huge and suggests that she was conceived as a motor sailer. Some review of the SA to D numbers would be in order, as would a conference with her designer.

It would be instructive to know the age of the photos. If current, she presents very well. The teak decks (something I do not generally like) appear to be glued rather than screwed down and to be in good order.

A final thought: the issue of a one-off boat is tricky. If the design meets your personal check list and is well executed, it can be a wonderful vessel for you (ours is!). When time to sell comes, the market is limited to others with the knowledge and courage to step off the common path and imagined "safety" of production boats. This could be a problem, especially if you don't intend to own the boat for a long time.

In your place, I'd sure be having a very close look at her!

Jim