Stack vs Inmast

[Joli]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A testament by the builder to the propensity for failure who built in the redundancy. I prefer to not have surprises at any time.

There are always surprises.


I’m waiting for the full length batten to break and pin the main up because the broken batten can’t get past the spreader.


I’ve sailed to long to never say never.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boom23

As another data point, my current boat, Amel 50, has in-mast furling. When any of the reversible mast motors (furler or outhaul) sense a high force situation, a buzzer alarm sounds and the operation stops. I just have to release the lever I was operating and try again. There's no damage.

Even when I was learning the system, the worst thing that happened was a lot of beeping. Now that I have a better feel for it, I get no beeping at all.

On top of that, there are manual backups for all sail operations.

I would not change my setup for anything else. I can do everything from the safety of my cockpit on my own.

OK, a bit off topic, but I met a guy in New Cal who was once standing on his cabin top helping furl his in-boom mainsail, using his toe to operate the electric winch, (single handed by the way) and his hand got tangled in the sail as it was furling, and ROLLED HIS ARM INTO THE FURL, AND LIFTED HIM OFF THE CABIN TOP! There he was unable to unroll the furled mainsail (or his arm, now broken) and unable to move.

Fortunately he was at the dock. A neighbor came along and released him.

Electric winches can be dangerous.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A testament by the builder to the propensity for failure who built in the redundancy. I prefer to not have surprises at any time.

Boom23:

You can't win this argument. Illusion BELIEVES in mast furling is the devil's own invention, and NOTHING you can say will change that illusion. The FACT that modern in mast systems are reliable and efficient doesn't matter, he doesn't BELIEVE it, and never will, because he doesn't want to. Closed minded and stubborn.

Once upon a time, I thought in mast systems were terrible and had no place on a cruising boat. I have learned that is not true. I have sailed 25,000 miles with TWO in mast furlers (main and mizzen) and have never once had a problem.

My boat has been around the world twice, and neither previous owner had a problem either. I have had traditional mainsails get stuck on the track at the top of the mast. Does that mean they are terrible and shouldn't ever be used? No, of course not. No system is perfect. All have compromises. Yes, sail shape isn't as perfect with roller furling. But boat performance is not about the shape of one sail. I'd take on any other monohull (and most cats) on for a long ocean passage with my "crappy" roller furled sails, and show them how a real cruising boat covers miles.

There are boats for which an in mast furler makes no sense. Putting one a a J-105, for example, would be stupid. But on a 50 foot cruising boat designed to be sailed by a couple, they make a lot of sense. The smaller the boat the more the weight and sail shape issues matter. The bigger the boat the more the safety and ease of sail trim matter.

All the arguments against in mast furlers are exactly the same ones we would have heard here 30 years ago against jib furlers.

[Cheechako]

The only thing I will add is the ease of "properly" furling a main may go away when the boat is bouncing around in heavy water.
It's an unanswerable debate for sure, but I'm a KISS guy, and sailboats are slow enough without impeding the main's drive!
Would I have a furler again? Maybe ...for local sailing etc.

[Mariano]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A testament by the builder to the propensity for failure who built in the redundancy. I prefer to not have surprises at any time.

Do you carry spares for your engine on your boat? Anchor, lines, filters, halyards, sheets, or even an extra pair of reading glasses? What for? That's redundancy............

Do you consider Steve Dashew ism't a real sailor? In his first books he was very against furling sails, but as furling systems improved he started instaling them in his sailboats, wich, by the way, have duplicate (OR REDUNDAT) of almost all critical equipment.

SH!T HAPPENS, even with the best built boat, and redundancy only means being one step ahead of things.

Fair winds
Mariano

PS: if you prefer not to have surprises at any time better stay in your sofa watching YOUTUBE. Sailing is always a surprise after another, some good, some bad, but always a surprise.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by wingssail

OK, a bit off topic, but I met a guy in New Cal who was once standing on his cabin top helping furl his in-boom mainsail, using his toe to operate the electric winch, (single handed by the way) and his hand got tangled in the sail as it was furling, and ROLLED HIS ARM INTO THE FURL, AND LIFTED HIM OFF THE CABIN TOP! There he was unable to unroll the furled mainsail (or his arm, now broken) and unable to move.

Fortunately he was at the dock. A neighbor came along and released him.

Electric winches can be dangerous.

I know a guy who fell off his boat and drawned...

Everything can be dangerous.

If you don't like powered things, don't use them. Even a manual winch can be dangerous depending on the person handling it.

I was just posting that in-mast furling systems can be reliable. Amel has proved that with all their boats. But, everything breaks at some point. That's why you need backups.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Mariano

Do you carry spares for your engine on your boat? Anchor, lines, filters, halyards, sheets, or even an extra pair of reading glasses? What for? That's redundancy............

Do you consider Steve Dashew ism't a real sailor? In his first books he was very against furling sails, but as furling systems improved he started instaling them in his sailboats, wich, by the way, have duplicate (OR REDUNDAT) of almost all critical equipment.

SH!T HAPPENS, even with the best built boat, and redundancy only means being one step ahead of things.

Fair winds
Mariano

PS: if you prefer not to have surprises at any time better stay in your sofa watching YOUTUBE. Sailing is always a surprise after another, some good, some bad, but always a surprise.

I completely agree.

I would also like to add that mast weight (up to a certain point) can be beneficial. It acts as a dampener so that a monohull does not roll abruptly. I believe it has been proven that de-masted boats have much more voilent movement and can roll easier.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The only thing I will add is the ease of "properly" furling a main may go away when the boat is bouncing around in heavy water.
It's an unanswerable debate for sure, but I'm a KISS guy, and sailboats are slow enough without impeding the main's drive!
Would I have a furler again? Maybe ...for local sailing etc.

Actually the opposite of this -- heavy weather is where in-mast furling shines. You can change sail area without heading up or even changing your course. I remember how much I used to dread coming head to wind when the seas were big, to reef my previous boat (so much so that I just wouldn't use the main sail after a certain point). It's all done from a safe place where you can concentrate on the job. Heavy weather is just where I want this system.


And on the contrary, for local sailing where passages are short and you can pick your weather, the advantages of in-mast are much less important, and I personally, because I'm crazy about sailing, would much prefer a nice roachy full batten sail.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Actually the opposite of this -- heavy weather is where in-mast furling shines. You can change sail area without heading up or even changing your course. I remember how much I used to dread coming head to wind when the seas were big, to reef my previous boat (so much so that I just wouldn't use the main sail after a certain point). It's all done from a safe place where you can concentrate on the job. Heavy weather is just where I want this system.

This has been my experience also.
In-mast furling is amazingly easy and safe to handle in heavy weather.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A testament by the builder to the propensity for failure who built in the redundancy. I prefer to not have surprises at any time.

Give us a break. So my electric winches are a bad system, with a propensity to fail, because they have a manual backup. Ditto the windlass. Ditto the generator. Ditto any system on board which has any kind of redundancy. This is silliness.


If you prefer "not to have surprises at any time", then you should stay home. You've never had a halyard wrap? Never had a furling line pull out of a headsail furler? Never had an item of deck gear break, or ripped a sail? Stuff breaks. Good stuff breaks very rarely.


KISS is a strong argument, but it's not the only argument. If KISS were the only criterion, then we would all be sailing cat rigs with self-supporting masts, or even, dugout canoes. In-mast furling is slightly more complex, just like furling headsails are slightly more complex than hank-ons. For some use cases and for some sailors, this complexity is worth it. For others, not. Take your pick; nobody's selling you anything.



Some BOATS are more KISS than others. Amels, for example, are extremely complex; little enough of KISS there. Actually they are more complex than I, personally and subjectively, like (the drive system for example). But the complexity is superbly executed, and you could hardly choose a more reliable or satisfying boat to sail around the world in. Complexity is always bad when it's unnecessary. But not always, when it's not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

I say this with a smile, “Look up the definition of hubris.” ANYONE who is not careful can bugger up an in mast system. Any of the following can cause the problem, tired main, bad boom angle, not keeping a little tension on the outhaul — any could cause a fold in the rolled sail. Get that fold deep (early) enough in the process and the sail will get bound inside the mast. Going in will be tight, but coming it is likely to get fouled. I taught folks to always look up when furling and unfurling. Ideally the dodger has a window so you can watch for folds.

The given is that anything aboard that breaks, gets fouled or otherwise errs will do so at night, when the captain is sleeping and in Force 6 or higher conditions. When an inmast gets bound because the crew or owner messed up, the only way I have found to clear it is harden the halyard, and alternate between heavy outhaul tension and inhaul/ rolling it up tension. You can do this without pulling on the sail with a 2-line system. With a cork screw, you can do it from the cockpit- but be careful not to put too much pressure on the outhaul. With a Selden it is a trip to the mast and one person at the mast working the ratchet while another tends the outhaul. Since it is usually blowing like hell and bumpy, invariably to be heard there is a lot of yelling between the deck and cockpit.

Can the Selden work? Sure, and I will continue to deliver them. And help owners develop action plans that meet their needs. But someone buying new should check the options.

I would not be thrilled with a hydraulic or power option. The best way to break something is a power winch. I teach folks to use power winches with hands clear, eyes on the load/sail and ears tuned to the winch. The only way to tell the winch is using force over finesse is seeing the load fouled or a change in pitch. Without the ability to clearly hear the motor driving the winch fitting at the mast, the stage is set for an epic jam.

Finally a delivery captain who at least understands how in-mast furling works. It seems to me a large percentage of problems with in-mast furling are caused by delivery skippers who don't know what they are doing, and most likely using systems which have been sitting for a year or more without use.

But even you seem to have problems that experienced owners practically never have. "Harden the halyard, send someone to the mast, alternate heavy outhaul with hauling hard in" -- when has that ever happened, to me or any other in-mast furling owner I've ever known? Well, to me, ONCE, almost 10 years ago, when I was using the system the first time and without a clue how to use it. Others go around the world three times without a single issue.

Your operating instructions are all exactly right -- but they are second nature to owners of the system. Yes, OBVIOUSLY, you keep an eye on the sail as it goes it, and stop if you see a fold developing. This is the primary operating rule -- all jams come from furling up the sail with folds in it. With a half decent sail and a system which is lubricated and in regular use, this happens rarely. And when it does, it's no big deal -- you just stop, pull out a bit of sail, fix the boom angle or whatever it was, and carry on.



Once you have enough experience, you don't necessarily even need to look -- you can clearly feel a problem developing, even using an electric winch, which I always do. But I do instruct newbies, just like you do, to watch the sail going in like a hawk -- because that is more reliable before someone has developed the feel for it.



Daletourier is not showing hubris. He simply knows how to use his system and has confidence in it and himself. There's a big difference. As an analogy which slab reefing guys will understand -- I have perfect confidence in my jib furler and in my ability to use it. I know it will work when I need; I know how to get that performance out of it. Is that confidence hubricious? Why no -- I've had a few halyard wraps in my time, I've had a jammed top swivel, I've had furling lines pull out and even broke one once. I've been through it all with jib furling over a lifetime of sailing, and I know what can go wrong, how to prevent it to a very high degree of certainty, and how to fix it if something after all does go wrong. Therefore, I have real confidence in it. It's exactly the same for those of use who have spent a decade or so living with in-mast furling.


I'm not saying that in-mast furling is exactly like jib furling. It's not. What can go wrong is somewhat different, and the skills needed to use it successfully are somewhat different, and the tradeoffs are different -- in-mast furling will never replace other reefing systems in the way that jib furling has replaced hank-ons. What I am saying, though, is that fear and loathing of both systems came/comes from lack of knowledge and experience. Remember the passionate arguments against jib furling, 30 years ago? It's from the devil; I would never go offshore with anything but hank-on headsails, bla bla bla. It's exactly the same thing here. You've spent a lifetime with hank-on jibs, use a jib furler a few times and have a problem with it, due to your own lack of skill or knowledge and/or the jib furler itself being an early bad one, or badly maintained, or whatever, you see younger folks without much experience buying shiny boats with those contraptions on it, and you shake your grizzled head and think all jib furling is the devil and for posers, for "credit card sailors", while "real sailors" don't use it. Remember those days? I do.

[Belezar]

To each his own. I don’t like in mast, and can’t stand lazy jacks. My experience with in-mast has all been with charter boats, but I have had problems every time. Plus weight aloft and poorer performance. I see folks in harbor all the time tinkering with the in-mast. Lazy jacks are for lazy folks imo, and just get in the way with all those lines. I’d rather do a manual stack. My preference is what I got, in boom. If I didn’t have that I would go traditional. Ymmv

[sailorboy1]

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2996857


KISS is a strong argument, [/QUOTE]

You know I don't consider my standard mainsail with a Dutchman and all the reefing lines very KISS at all. I've had lots of things out wrong over the years with it.




BTW - yes I kind of took the quote semi out of context to use the KISS thing

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Finally a delivery captain who at least understands how in-mast furling works. It seems to me a large percentage of problems with in-mast furling are caused by delivery skippers who don't know what they are doing, and most likely using systems which have been sitting for a year or more without use.

But even you seem to have problems that experienced owners practically never have. "Harden the halyard, send someone to the mast, alternate heavy outhaul with hauling hard in" -- when has that ever happened, to me or any other in-mast furling owner I've ever known? Well, to me, ONCE, almost 10 years ago, when I was using the system the first time and without a clue how to use it. Others go around the world three times without a single issue.

Your operating instructions are all exactly right -- but they are second nature to owners of the system. Yes, OBVIOUSLY, you keep an eye on the sail as it goes it, and stop if you see a fold developing. This is the primary operating rule -- all jams come from furling up the sail with folds in it. With a half decent sail and a system which is lubricated and in regular use, this happens rarely. And when it does, it's no big deal -- you just stop, pull out a bit of sail, fix the boom angle or whatever it was, and carry on.



....

First thank you for the kind words, there is a reason I am never "low bid". As a delivery captain, I often get mature boats with tired mains. As stated previously a tired main is one way to get a fold and a resulting jam. Even a seasoned in-mast user like you can bugger a tired main. Most of the owners I have aboard the delivery are on a new-to-them boat.

Regarding my comment on hubris- If you do something 1000 times perfectly- by the book, paying attention, etcetera- when you start taking shortcuts and not paying attention stuff will happen. I have seen it in 2 careers!

IMHO, on mast-furling boats, the dodger should have a window so you can see the main go into the mast. Perhaps it is because, I do care about the boats I deliver- every time a main is furled on a delivery the crew better be watching it go in. If this delivery captain sees anyone, owner or crew, not watching it go in- they will get the lecture about how to furl it properly. Keep in mind the captain is the guy who will need to clear it at 0200.

We agree on most- my philosophy is to be extra careful... Ya can't get in trouble for NOT breaking something on a delivery!

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And I can sit at my computer and push a few buttons too, and get all the sailing experiences I want for zero effort or cost.

But sailing is about more than how much you can do with the least effort.

I N M A S T VS S T A C K?

Depends on what kind of sailor your are. Love of sailing or love of sitting.

I like a well shaped mainsail and a fine feeling boat under sail, so I'd go for S T A C K. In fact I don't even have the stack. I fold my sails.

Absolutely true... I was just thinking the members of this forum should have badges on their icons: (R) Racer (S) Sailor (C) Cruiser/liveaboard. This would cut down on a bit of confusion. From your perspective of loving that fine tuned feeling, with probably a group of buddies to man the positions, you'd be crazy to get an in mast. From my perspective of living and lugging my entire life and 3 cats around on 53feet with only 2 other crew/partners, I'd be crazy to not. All depends on which the OP is.