Stack vs Inmast

[Joli]

We don’t consider it an issue to go on deck to reef but understand not everyone feels this way. Up wind we’ll typically set two reefs at 27~30 apparent. Down wind we double reef at 20 apparent and lower the main at 30 and just use headsails. We use both lazy jacks and hay racks to keep the main on the boom. This works well for us since keeping a 250# mainsail on a boom that is 6’ off the deck is not a trivial matter.

One of the nicest things about a traditional main is the ability to de power it with mast bend. We can board out the sail and extend its wind range, which can’t be done with in mast furling or with furled in boom because outhaul tension is lost.


Anyway, this works for us and we’ve stayed with a traditional mainsail setup for the reasons listed.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I remember how much I used to dread coming head to wind when the seas were big, to reef my previous boat (so much so that I just wouldn't use the main sail after a certain point).

You don't need to come head to wind to reef a conventional main. You need to take most of the pressure off the main. A little pressure helps with control. Light air downwind you can reef. In higher wind speeds you can ease the main and/or come up a bit but you can continue to sail the boat under head sail(s).

I will say a preventer helps with boom control, but that is true of in-mast furling as well.

Originally Posted by Snore

ANYONE who is not careful can bugger up an in mast system.

Agreed. I'll add that it is easier to "bugger up" in-mast furling than a conventional main.

Originally Posted by Snore

The given is that anything aboard that breaks, gets fouled or otherwise errs will do so at night, when the captain is sleeping and in Force 6 or higher conditions.

Why is it always 3am, raining, and I'm in my underwear?

In addition to the resolutions for a fold that Snore lists I have had good luck in moderate conditions with tacking back and forth. The wind is a powerful force and you can pull out the fold by working that force back and forth.

Also note that Selden does have manual remote, electric, and hydraulic versions of their in-mast furling in addition to the winch on the mast version.

Originally Posted by Joli

We don’t consider it an issue to go on deck to reef but understand not everyone feels this way.

I don't mind going forward either. In my experience going to the mast is fastest and the least amount of time spend in transition is safest.

My experience going back and forth between conventional, in-mast, and in-boom is that I have the fewest problems with conventional mains, the most with in-boom, and move the boat fastest with a conventional main.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Joli

We don’t consider it an issue to go on deck to reef but understand not everyone feels this way. Up wind we’ll typically set two reefs at 27~30 apparent. Down wind we double reef at 20 apparent and lower the main at 30 and just use headsails. We use both lazy jacks and hay racks to keep the main on the boom. This works well for us since keeping a 250# mainsail on a boom that is 6’ off the deck is not a trivial matter.

One of the nicest things about a traditional main is the ability to de power it with mast bend. We can board out the sail and extend its wind range, which can’t be done with in mast furling or with furled in boom because outhaul tension is lost.


Anyway, this works for us and we’ve stayed with a traditional mainsail setup for the reasons listed.

We don't consider it an issue to go to the mast to reef either.

Going to the foredeck in heavy conditions to deal with something there is a slightly bigger issue. Sometimes I feel like I am going to work when I have to leave the cockpit and go forward. But I can do it. So can Judy.

We have kept a traditional main and have no roller furling on the foresails either. I agree with Joli's points.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Absolutely true... I was just thinking the members of this forum should have badges on their icons: (R) Racer (S) Sailor (C) Cruiser/liveaboard. This would cut down on a bit of confusion. From your perspective of loving that fine tuned feeling, with probably a group of buddies to man the positions, you'd be crazy to get an in mast. From my perspective of living and lugging my entire life and 3 cats around on 53feet with only 2 other crew/partners, I'd be crazy to not. All depends on which the OP is.

Then we'd need one which has RSC since we consider ourselves all three. Yes, we have a group of friends to man the positions while racing, but we two, Fred & Judy, have lugged our entire life around with us also (and that includes 14 sails but no cats), on 43ft, for 23 years, and certainly we're considered by many to be crazy, but a traditional main and headsails is all we would want to sail with.

[izzyforreal]

I wouldn't quit sailing if I had to use in-mast, but it would be close. First, the sails are just fugly. Second, I've heard too many horror stories of equipment failure. Third, the loss of sail area is a deal breaker for me. Has anyone mentioned The Dutchman? I have it on my Tartan 40 and it is a cinch to hoist, drop and reef.

[jmh2002]

I'm not sure why slab reefing is still associated with having to go to the mast (or even why so many here still seem to have their boats set up like that).

- If you don't want to go forward, then lead all the lines aft.

This is nothing to do with Slab Reefing vs In Mast Furling. This is do with boat set up.

Also if Slab Reefing is difficult, if there is too much friction, etc, etc, then just like In Mast Furling jams and problems - you are doing it wrong.

- Replace those old mast and boom sheaves with modern low friction sheaves
(we retrofitted Harken roller bearing sheaves - here are some examples https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=378)

- Replace those old lines with modern small diameter lines
(I think we had 8mm reefing lines on a 51 footer)

- Add a Mast Track system if the luff won't come down (mostly by itself)

Now everything will run freely (and oh, we did this 25 years ago...so why aren't all boats like this already?)

And if the physical work load is just too high for the crew, fit an electric winch (which can also be used for other purposes too) and some nice rope clutches to manage the lines.

If you still want In Mast Furling that is a personal choice, but when choosing it doesn't make much sense to compare the best new In Mast system to a very old fashioned or low tech Slab Reefing system together with going forward, danger, getting wet, too difficult, etc, etc.

It doesn't have to be like that.

Here is my previous post again because the points are related:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm not going to get involved in which system is better, but I am always surprised to read that so many slab reefing systems on cruising boats here (mostly crewed by couples - so shorthanded) are still setup in way that requires going to the mast?

And then comparing that totally manual system to a push button in mast furling system...

With all lines led aft I could reef the big, heavy, fully battened mainsail on a 51 footer single handed all from one position.

When we later added an electric cabin top winch it became crazy easy.

But it does require setting the system up to work easily, with a very simple but major point being that the main halyard should be marked at each reef point.

Drop the halyard to the mark, pull the downhaul tight, winch the halyard tight, winch the reefing line tight. Job done.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

First thank you for the kind words, there is a reason I am never "low bid". As a delivery captain, I often get mature boats with tired mains. As stated previously a tired main is one way to get a fold and a resulting jam. Even a seasoned in-mast user like you can bugger a tired main. Most of the owners I have aboard the delivery are on a new-to-them boat.

Regarding my comment on hubris- If you do something 1000 times perfectly- by the book, paying attention, etcetera- when you start taking shortcuts and not paying attention stuff will happen. I have seen it in 2 careers!

IMHO, on mast-furling boats, the dodger should have a window so you can see the main go into the mast. Perhaps it is because, I do care about the boats I deliver- every time a main is furled on a delivery the crew better be watching it go in. If this delivery captain sees anyone, owner or crew, not watching it go in- they will get the lecture about how to furl it properly. Keep in mind the captain is the guy who will need to clear it at 0200.

We agree on most- my philosophy is to be extra careful... Ya can't get in trouble for NOT breaking something on a delivery!

I've never used a delivery skipper, but if I ever do, you've moved to the top of the list


I like all of this. A really good sailor, like a good airman I guess, or a good parachutist or soldier -- is always worrying at least a little, always questioning, always thinking, never complacent, never arrogant, never assumes anything. And that there is what makes the difference between confidence and hubris.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You know I don't consider my standard mainsail with a Dutchman and all the reefing lines very KISS at all. I've had lots of things out wrong over the years with it.

BTW - yes I kind of took the quote semi out of context to use the KISS thing

Fair enough.


If you want KISS, that was the very first sailboat I owned, which I bought with my hard-saved pennies when I was a teenager back in the 70's, a 16' Chrysler Man O War. That boat had a cat rig, freestanding mast, and exactly -- one rope. The sail had a sleeve and you just inserted the mast in it and then stepped it. No furling of any kind, no reefing, the only variant to depower was to let go the sheet or (!) unstep the mast .


If KISS were the only right way to do things, that would be it. But we don't do it like that, do we?

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A really good sailor, like a good airman I guess, or a good parachutist or soldier -- is always worrying at least a little, always questioning, always thinking, never complacent, never arrogant, never assumes anything. And that there is what makes the difference between confidence and hubris.

I really like what you said and how you said it. I totally agree.
This goes in my memorable quotes list. Thank you!

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've never used a delivery skipper, but if I ever do, you've moved to the top of the list

Thanks, high praise indeed.

[knoxy]

Really surprised no one has yet brought up the option of in boom furling. Fully battened main, weight keep low, infinite reefing, ability to reef while sailing downwind. What’s not to like.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by knoxy

Really surprised no one has yet brought up the option of in boom furling. Fully battened main, weight keep low, infinite reefing, ability to reef while sailing downwind. What’s not to like.

Ever use one? They are a little finicky as you need to keep the boom angle just right and they also do not have infinite reefing. Thought the same thing until we used one. The reef points are set at the battens (predetermined by the sail maker).
Many do like them though.


Bill O.

[argonauta1]

Yeah, a stack pak type main can be awkward to get it stowed but . . . an in-mast system, in my view, oh yes, experience too, has the potential to become a catastrophe if it cannot be furled for some reason. There are several from rig issues to sail deformation. I circumnavigated with a stack pak system. Yes, I have been tip toe on a rolly deck but have found getting a boat hook around the halyard at the shackle is a safe way of hauling it down that extra yard or so then looping the halyard around a cleat on the lower mast to hold it down. Forget the zip until at anchor or docked. I'd avoid both in-boom and in-mast options.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by knoxy

Really surprised no one has yet brought up the option of in boom furling. Fully battened main, weight keep low, infinite reefing, ability to reef while sailing downwind. What’s not to like.

There must be a reason they are not popular...

[B23iL23]

Cost? Friend on mine has a Hallspars carbon furling boom on his CNB 66 - $140,000 a pop. That's for the boom, not the boat.

Originally Posted by boom23

There must be a reason they are not popular...