Stack vs Inmast

[Haddock1]

Thank you dockhead, a master class on inmast sail management. Will take note on all your points and check with the sales agent to see what the set up is which I am sure is selden and to ask for a quote for a sail upgrade to polyester tafetta.

Much appreciate your comments which has confirmed that inmast is the way forward at least for my type of sailing.

[Joli]

We use a stack pack type system and find reefing to be simple and quick. The main is a little over 1,000 sq ft with 6 full length battens and Harken Batt Cars. I handle the tack and halyard at the mast and my wife handles the clew from the center cockpit. Reefing is a two minute job although manually cranking up a 250# mainsail after being deeply reefed can be a workout.

We like the stack pack and probably wouldn’t order a boat with inmast reefing but have many friends who own and like them.

[Snore]

Dockhead has done a great job of discussing how to use in-mast. I can only add that 1) my experience has been most jams are the result of poor furling. If during the furling process, the boom is flailing about, or the the sail is loaded, or the sail is baggy, or there is inadequate outhaul tension, or the boom angle is wrong- you can get a fold in the sail as it wraps. The fold increases the diameter furl inside the mast and results in fouling. You may get the sail in- but when it comes out, there is a likelihood of it binding and not coming out.

The second thing I can add is that there are a few designs of in-mast furling. My personal preference is against the Selden design that has a winch socket on the mast. I have sailed and prefer either a system where the reefing line goes onto a corkscrew in the mast, or a two-line systems. I really don't want to start a whole 'nother debate on design. So I will simply suggest that you find out what in mast system(s) they offer, and try to sail them, or obtain input from people who have sailed that design. Understand how it furls, reefs and most importantly once reefed, how do you partially ease a reef.

Many manufacturers have videos on YouTube- watch their video of how to use the in-mast and then the videos by others. As always, the quality of the video should be weighed against their experience.

[Bill O]

Haddock,
We added Antal reefing blocks to the clews of our main, eliminating much of the friction and making it much easier to reef. Similar to Joli, we don't use a single line reefing system, but separate the halyard and clew to make reefing much easier/quicker.


Bill O.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Snore

Dockhead has done a great job of discussing how to use in-mast. I can only add that 1) my experience has been most jams are the result of poor furling. If during the furling process, the boom is flailing about, or the the sail is loaded, or the sail is baggy, or there is inadequate outhaul tension, or the boom angle is wrong- you can get a fold in the sail as it wraps. The fold increases the diameter furl inside the mast and results in fouling. You may get the sail in- but when it comes out, there is a likelihood of it binding and not coming out.

The second thing I can add is that there are a few designs of in-mast furling. My personal preference is against the Selden design that has a winch socket on the mast. I have sailed and prefer either a system where the reefing line goes onto a corkscrew in the mast, or a two-line systems. I really don't want to start a whole 'nother debate on design. So I will simply suggest that you find out what in mast system(s) they offer, and try to sail them, or obtain input from people who have sailed that design. Understand how it furls, reefs and most importantly once reefed, how do you partially ease a reef.

Many manufacturers have videos on YouTube- watch their video of how to use the in-mast and then the videos by others. As always, the quality of the video should be weighed against their experience.

Hi, I have a Sparcraft with the corkscrew furling arrangement you speak of. I'm quite happy with it, I've never had a problem. It's not finicky at all, I really dont have to e very careful.

I'm interested in why you believe the cork screw type is better than the seldon type? I've never used the seldon but have been led to believe they are better.

Absolutely no need for a debate just interested in others views.

[Mystic38]

Reliability..

I can agree that modern in mast furlers are more reliable of those of yesteryear, but stating that the reliability is equivalent to a slab reef /battcar & lazy jack setup is totally false.. it is simply impossible for this to be the case.

at the end of the day, the reliability of two best in class systems will boil down to the number of mechanical items involved in a process.. and in mast furling is a more complicated system.. to say otherwise is simply biassed

[Cheechako]

If you actually want to sail: STACK.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

If you actually want to sail: STACK.

probably the standard answer given my owners of nonfurling mains

except me, I have a standard mainsail and if it were no cost to me would change to a furler in a heartbeat

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

probably the standard answer given my owners of nonfurling mains

except me, I have a standard mainsail and if it were no cost to me would change to a furler in a heartbeat

You are right I don't have one. But yes I HAD one. Useless mainsail. OK for motor sailing. Was brand new North built too.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

You are right I don't have one. But yes I HAD one. Useless mainsail. OK for motor sailing. Was brand new North built too.

I've only sailed a furling mainsail boat twice. And it was on a sister ship to mine so I will say it sailed the same as mine near as I could tell. But it sure was easier to reef and "drop" than my boat with standard mainsail with a Dutchman.

just saying and not looking to argue.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

Dockhead has done a great job of discussing how to use in-mast. I can only add that 1) my experience has been most jams are the result of poor furling. If during the furling process, the boom is flailing about, or the the sail is loaded, or the sail is baggy, or there is inadequate outhaul tension, or the boom angle is wrong- you can get a fold in the sail as it wraps. The fold increases the diameter furl inside the mast and results in fouling. You may get the sail in- but when it comes out, there is a likelihood of it binding and not coming out.

The second thing I can add is that there are a few designs of in-mast furling. My personal preference is against the Selden design that has a winch socket on the mast. I have sailed and prefer either a system where the reefing line goes onto a corkscrew in the mast, or a two-line systems. I really don't want to start a whole 'nother debate on design. So I will simply suggest that you find out what in mast system(s) they offer, and try to sail them, or obtain input from people who have sailed that design. Understand how it furls, reefs and most importantly once reefed, how do you partially ease a reef.. . .

No argument from me about the Selden furling drum. I don't really like it and something else would be better. Maybe an electric or hydraulic motor.


These are very good comments; in-mast furling newbies need to print out and memorize.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mystic38

Reliability..

I can agree that modern in mast furlers are more reliable of those of yesteryear, but stating that the reliability is equivalent to a slab reef /battcar & lazy jack setup is totally false.. it is simply impossible for this to be the case.

at the end of the day, the reliability of two best in class systems will boil down to the number of mechanical items involved in a process.. and in mast furling is a more complicated system.. to say otherwise is simply biassed

I think this is right.



For simplicity, a conventional main definitely has the advantage.


I may have overstated the case. The best current in-mast furling systems are very reliable. Very very reliable in skilled hands. Plenty reliable enough. But there is more to go wrong than with a conventional main. I think we have to agree on that.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It's not finicky at all, I really dont have to (b)e very careful.
.

I say this with a smile, “Look up the definition of hubris.” ANYONE who is not careful can bugger up an in mast system. Any of the following can cause the problem, tired main, bad boom angle, not keeping a little tension on the outhaul — any could cause a fold in the rolled sail. Get that fold deep (early) enough in the process and the sail will get bound inside the mast. Going in will be tight, but coming it is likely to get fouled. I taught folks to always look up when furling and unfurling. Ideally the dodger has a window so you can watch for folds.

Originally Posted by daletournier

. I'm interested in why you believe the cork screw type is better than the seldon type? I've never used the seldon but have been led to believe they are better.

The given is that anything aboard that breaks, gets fouled or otherwise errs will do so at night, when the captain is sleeping and in Force 6 or higher conditions. When an inmast gets bound because the crew or owner messed up, the only way I have found to clear it is harden the halyard, and alternate between heavy outhaul tension and inhaul/ rolling it up tension. You can do this without pulling on the sail with a 2-line system. With a cork screw, you can do it from the cockpit- but be careful not to put too much pressure on the outhaul. With a Selden it is a trip to the mast and one person at the mast working the ratchet while another tends the outhaul. Since it is usually blowing like hell and bumpy, invariably to be heard there is a lot of yelling between the deck and cockpit.

Can the Selden work? Sure, and I will continue to deliver them. And help owners develop action plans that meet their needs. But someone buying new should check the options.

I would not be thrilled with a hydraulic or power option. The best way to break something is a power winch. I teach folks to use power winches with hands clear, eyes on the load/sail and ears tuned to the winch. The only way to tell the winch is using force over finesse is seeing the load fouled or a change in pitch. Without the ability to clearly hear the motor driving the winch fitting at the mast, the stage is set for an epic jam.

[boom23]

As another data point, my current boat, Amel 50, has in-mast furling. When any of the reversible mast motors (furler or outhaul) sense a high force situation, a buzzer alarm sounds and the operation stops. I just have to release the lever I was operating and try again. There's no damage.

Even when I was learning the system, the worst thing that happened was a lot of beeping. Now that I have a better feel for it, I get no beeping at all.

On top of that, there are manual backups for all sail operations.

I would not change my setup for anything else. I can do everything from the safety of my cockpit on my own.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by boom23

.

On top of that, there are manual backups for all sail operations.

.

A testament by the builder to the propensity for failure who built in the redundancy. I prefer to not have surprises at any time.