Stack vs Inmast

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Real sailors don’t use furling masts. They aren’t reliable. . . ..

Ridiculous nonsense.



Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this one is contradicted by the experience of probably 80% of all Northern European sailors with cruising boats over 45 feet, and the other 20% are mostly those with boats more than 20 years old.

We've had this discussion before and it is boring to repeat all the arguments, so I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Bill O

Dockhead, I think Illusion is calling you out lol...!!
Bill O.

The "real sailor" bit is just trolling.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

There are two big issues with inmast. First it puts more weights loft, thereby raising the center of mass. Second, when it get buggered, it will compromise the boat.

The first is physics, you can only adjust for it by engineering in mast boats differently than conventional rigs. An interesting alternative is in-boom furling, as it lowers the center of mass vs in-mast.

The second requires meticulous birder OCD operating of furling and un-furling. As well as changing the sail when it gets worn. The times I have had issues with in-mast, the sail was getting baggy, and resulted in folds in the bundled sail. While in-boom does not solve the problem, if in-boom gets fouled, there are work arounds.

And yes it is very hard to, get a sweet shape out of in-mast. Whereas, in-boom have battens, but are still difficult to get a good shape out of.

Gosh, are we going to have this conversation all over again? We seem to have the very same one every two or three months.


Of course every furling system has its own pluses and minuses.


In mast furling has these drawbacks:


1. Weight aloft
2. Rigid mast which can't be bent for tuning the mainsail or adding tension to the forestay
3. Large diameter mast which is worse for aerodynamics, producing a larger dead area at the luff
4. High cost
5. Deals badly with baggy sails.
6. No roach so a significant performance hit in light conditions.
7. Flatter cut sail is not as powerful in light conditions.



I am not listing "unreliable" because as everyone who has actually lived with in-mast furling knows, a good system (like Selden) properly maintained is equally reliable with normal full batten main. Reliability is simply not an issue.


The advantages of in-mast furling:


1. Instant and infinite variation of sail area, which is a plus for performance which may even cancel out the drawback of no roach, in some cases and conditions, and which is a plus for safety when you need to reduce sail quickly.

2. Ideal storage of the sail inside the mast which greatly increases the useful life of the sail.
3. No flaking and covering of the sail after use.
4. Fewer lines on deck.
5. Reefing without leaving the cockpit, a massive plus for safety in tough ocean conditions.
6. Flatter cut sail which is a drawback in light wind becomes a plus in strong conditions.





All in all the advantages of in-mast furling are more important for tough ocean conditions and windier higher latitudes, and the drawbacks are worse for coastal sailing and milder latitudes. This is probably why at least 90% of new monohull cruising boats over 45 feet produced in Northern Europe, including high end cruising boats like HR, Contest, Discovery, Najad, etc. have in-mast furling -- it is a practically universal system up here. Whereas boats used in the Med and U.S. are mostly delivered with slab reefing, although in-mast furling is gaining popularity there too.


I wouldn't want it coastal sailing in the Med, Florida, Carib, etc. But in the Baltic, North Sea, and even tougher places, further North -- it would be hard to do without it.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Snore

There are two big issues with inmast.

When I start reading a thread like this, especially when I'm late to the party, I start taking notes (multi-head computers are wonderful things). Then I get down to a note from @Dockhead and drawing lines through my thoughts. *sigh* It's unlikely that he types faster than I do but he sure is on top of the same things I think are important - mostly. I wouldn't want him to get a swelled head or anything. *grin*



His list of pros and cons pretty well aligns with mine. I think his statement (which aligns with current conventional wisdom) that sail adjustment from the cockpit is safer is worthy of discussion. Overall I my contribution is "what he said."

[Cheechako]

S T A C K.

[Fbfisher]

I N M A S T

[jmh2002]

I'm not going to get involved in which system is better, but I am always surprised to read that so many slab reefing systems on cruising boats here (mostly crewed by couples - so shorthanded) are still setup in way that requires going to the mast?

And then comparing that totally manual system to a push button in mast furling system...

With all lines led aft I could reef the big, heavy, fully battened mainsail on a 51 footer single handed all from one position.

When we later added an electric cabin top winch it became crazy easy.

But it does require setting the system up to work easily, with a very simple but major point being that the main halyard should be marked at each reef point.

Drop the halyard to the mark, pull the downhaul tight, winch the halyard tight, winch the reefing line tight. Job done.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this one is contradicted by the experience of probably 80% of all Northern European sailors with cruising boats over 45 feet, and the other 20% are mostly those with boats more than 20 years old.

.

Our opinions may differ but making up facts (i.e., 80%??????) serves only to make you lose credibility and weaken your opinion. And what northern Eu hasd to do with many/most of the rest of us is a dubious metaphor.




They stick, add weight, can fail, require like new sail shape to be dependable, etc... are indisputable. Nothing is perfect but being last on that list shouldn't be lauded. Or defended simply because you have one.

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This is probably why at least 90% of new monohull cruising boats over 45 feet produced in Northern Europe, ... have in-mast furling.

So it’s less common in smaller boats? Is that primarily a cost issue?

[flyingfin]

Stack,,,,,unless you have crew capable of ascending mast to break furled sail jam,,,,,and they never jam near the bottom, always halfway up the mast

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Our opinions may differ but making up facts (i.e., 80%??????) serves only to make you lose credibility and weaken your opinion. And what northern Eu hasd to do with many/most of the rest of us is a dubious metaphor.

Nobody made up any facts. I have been sailing here for the last 10 years.

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

They stick, add weight, can fail, require like new sail shape to be dependable, etc... are indisputable. Nothing is perfect but being last on that list shouldn't be lauded. Or defended simply because you have one.

I don't defend it because I have one. My previous boat didn't have it and my next boat might not. I'm not selling them. They have pros and cons which I have honestly described based on very extensive and actual experience, not hearsay and prejudice. People reading this are smart enough to know the difference. People can weigh the pros and cons and choose for themselves.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Only if someone gets defensive about opposing opinions.

Your opinion of real sailors dont have inmast furlers isnt an opposing opinion, it's just rude and disrespectful comment.....frame it anyway you want.

I know many world circumnavigators that have inmast furlers, they aren't real sailors?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

So it’s less common in smaller boats? Is that primarily a cost issue?

Yes, by my observation, in-mast furling has been less common in smaller boats, although it is getting more and more popular.



In my opinion, in mast furling makes less sense for smaller boats. Cost is one issue, but the advantages of in-mast furling are just not nearly as compelling if the mainsail is small and manageable to begin with.


However, people like them, and people who once have in-mast furling don't typically want to be without it and demand it on their next boat. In Europe it has become hard to sell a used cruising boat without in-mast furling. So more and more boats are being equipped with it, including boats I would not personally think it makes much sense for, but I guess people are entitled to like what they like.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I could just as easily say how many sailors have been injured or become MOBs while trying to reef or pack away a mainsail up on deck? Reefing lines can be a source of failure as well. In any conditions I can push a few buttons and reef or put away my main from the safety of the cockpit.

And I can sit at my computer and push a few buttons too, and get all the sailing experiences I want for zero effort or cost.

But sailing is about more than how much you can do with the least effort.

I N M A S T VS S T A C K?

Depends on what kind of sailor your are. Love of sailing or love of sitting.

I like a well shaped mainsail and a fine feeling boat under sail, so I'd go for S T A C K. In fact I don't even have the stack. I fold my sails.

[Haddock1]

Thanks for all your comments many of which I understood and there are clearly two camps as always. I have to assume that inmast is more reliable now as most production boats of the size I am looking at (50 feet) seem to come with this as standard. I am sure the manufacturers would not have this option if they were unreliable as the cost to keep fixing under warranty would hit the bottom line. My sailing is more or less single handed (no disrespect to the wife here) but her sailing interests or more focused on the destination and not the passage. The reefing experience with my stack system on my current 46 footer is woeful especially shaking them out which requires pulling line through at the end of the boom due to all the friction which often means leaving them in until we are at our next anchorage. The boom is very high up and the end over the bimini. I am planning to add a code zero so this should address light wind conditions. I think I am convinced on inmast but from your comments probably need to dig a bit deeper in to the bank account and upgrade the standard Dacron sails supplied.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Haddock1

Thanks for all your comments many of which I understood and there are clearly two camps as always. I have to assume that inmast is more reliable now as most production boats of the size I am looking at (50 feet) seem to come with this as standard. I am sure the manufacturers would not have this option if they were unreliable as the cost to keep fixing under warranty would hit the bottom line. My sailing is more or less single handed (no disrespect to the wife here) but her sailing interests or more focused on the destination and not the passage. The reefing experience with my stack system on my current 46 footer is woeful especially shaking them out which requires pulling line through at the end of the boom due to all the friction which often means leaving them in until we are at our next anchorage. The boom is very high up and the end over the bimini. I am planning to add a code zero so this should address light wind conditions. I think I am convinced on inmast but from your comments probably need to dig a bit deeper in to the bank account and upgrade the standard Dacron sails supplied.

Like with everything, there is a great variety of quality in different reefing systems for conventional mainsails. If you take care to set it up right, the experience of reefing a conventional main shouldn't be "woeful". However, friction in the reefing lines is the classical problem and even in the best case it is a certain amount of trouble.


You will no doubt like in-mast furling, but like with everything, they are also not all created equal, so be sure you're getting a good system. Selden is the gold standard (my rigger said that over 90% of masts Selden now produce are in-mast furling masts) but there are other good systems. And as discussed, the sail is very important. The battenless hollow leech ones do really have a poor shape; vertical battens and a straight leech make a night and day difference. Some makers are even putting some roach on their in-mast furling mains; I can't comment as I haven't tried this, but Halberg Rassey have this as standard on the flagship HR64, so I guess it must work. But mine is straight and has very nice shape, no worse than a fully battened conventional main, albeit it is cut flatter so works worse in light wind and better in strong wind, especially upwind.



And as discussed, you will be very glad if you go for laminate sails. They are thinner and more flexible than woven sails, so greatly improve the performance of in-mast furling. But in my opinion you would be glad to have laminate sails whatever reefing system you have -- they are simply fantastic, making an unbelievable difference in sailing pleasure. My sails are carbon/twaron with Dyneema taffeta on both sides. The Dyneema is super light and super slick so the in-mast furler works like a dream; but the normal polyester tafetta works fine as well -- it's not structural.



Then, if you do go with in-mast furling, learn to use it correctly and maintain it. Don't just whang the sail out without watching and feeling what is going on -- sometimes it is good to turn the furler as the outhaul comes out, and if you furled incorrectly and got a fold in the roll, you can jam it if you just jerk the sail out without feeling what is going on. Most jams happen to inexperienced people when unfurling; once people get experience with the system jams simply never happen provided the system is quality to begin with (not the older American ones), is maintained, and the sail is more or less decent. Even a fold in the roll and a baggy sail will not turn into a jam if you stop as soon as the folded bit hits the slot; then you just work it in and out until it comes out. A really bad jam just cannot happen with a Selden or Sparcraft in-mast furler without a completely insensate idiot plus an electric winch.



When you furl in, keep some mild tension on the outhaul to keep the roll tight. Both furling and unfurling, the boom angle is important -- experiment until you find the right angle which prevents the sail from wrinkling -- it's usually more or less horizontal. Note also that furling and unfurling will be easier on one tack rather than the other. Normally you can do it on either tack, but in strong wind you might prefer to tack or gybe to have the sail on that tack where the sail goes straight in, rather than having to turn around the lip of the slot, which adds a lot of friction. Lastly -- contrary to what you normally do with a conventional main, do not head into the wind to furl or unfurl. Head to wind is actually the only position where you shouldn't furl or unfurl -- it can be done on any point of sail, but works much better with a little wind in the sail, best of all on a close reach, but I do it even with the boom out on a preventer. You will of course LOVE that you can change sail area without changing course -- in really big waves this can be a literally life saving feature of in-mast furling.


Lastly, maintenance -- keep the swivels top and bottom washed and lubricated. Many problems with in-mast furling occur with swivels which have literally never been lubricated and seize up (just like with halyard wraps on headsail furlers). People who don't understand the system and have never had it before are sometimes unaware that these bearings need the same maintenance as the headsail furler. Then, you need to keep the proper tension on the foil -- check every time you have have the sail down. It is totally simple to adjust with just a screwdriver, at least on the Selden system. Lastly, if you go with the endless rope adjusted type, the winch drum has soft plastic jaws which wear out eventually -- you will want to have spare ones on board and understand how to change them. With Selden, at least, it's dead simple.



Oh, and one more thing -- be careful with the balance of tension between backstay and forestay to avoid bending the mast; keep the rigging in tune. The mast needs to be straight (or with whatever designed prebend or rake it has), in order to not bind the top swivel bearings.


And -- halyard tension. Most people set it once and leave it like that for the whole season. Not me -- I slack the halyard a bit when I'm not sailing, and adjust it to adjust draft position. The furler works best with moderate halyard tension, so you can let it off a bit when furling, but that's optional. If I were ordering a new boat, I would definitely order halyard cars. I like the Harken ones: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/hark...er-slider-cars