Need some help understanding differences...

[hpeer]

T might be useful to look at the video inked in this attached thread.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...se-246347.html

[glanrock]

Originally Posted by Angela79

Hi All,

My husband and I are trying to research the differences between makes of boats and we don't understand why some older boats like Shannon, Amel, Hallberg-Rassy etc are so much more expensive than many comparably sized newer boats. I heard someone on a youtube channel say that "boat snobs" look down on brands like Jeanneau and Beneteau and call them 'Plastique Fantastiques.' So I thought it must have something to do with the construction of the hull, but both the first group of boats and the second group of boats both have fiberglass listed as hull material. I prefer the aesthetic of a newer boat - a Jeanneau 45 DS for example - over the older boats but I also want to be safe. We are not planning on crossing oceans, more like coastal cruising or trips to the Bahamas - as we don't have the experience or knowledge. If someone could help me understand the difference between the more expensive older boats and the newer boats which (on the surface) look just as nice or nicer I would really appreciate it! Thank you

Go look at the boats you like, in your price range. There is nothing wrong with the Jeanneau 45 DS for what your thinking about doing. Now, there could be something wrong with the one you are looking at right now, that's where the surveyor comes in. Don't use a surveyor your broker recommends, unless your broker is helping you buy the boat! That's my advice to you both. We were also looking at the DS, actually we couldn't get a broker to return our calls to go look at one or we would have looked at them. We ended up going in a different direction but is a wholly different story.

Keep doing your own research, and yes, its sometimes tricky. The fact is that you need to do your homework on any boat, Amel, Hunter, Jeanneau, Beneteau, Bavaria, Passport, Oyster, Catalina, whatever. An Amel ain't worth a *bleep* if the owner treated it like *bleep*, ran it aground a few times, backed into the pier every time they docked, never changed the oil, etc, but they'll still try to get as much as one that the owner took great care of. That's where your knowledge will come in, before the surveyor. You probably don't want to drop $1k or more for every boat you like. A fresh coat of paint on the bottom looks great, but what might it be hiding?

Copied from Amazon, I would get Don Casey's book: "Don Casey’s Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual combines six core volumes into a single, utterly dependable resource that answers every frequent question, explains every major system, and helps you keep your boat and its components shipshape."

We bought our first boat in 2013, and our (hopefully) last one a year ago this time. We are looking to do the same things as you sounds like, add in some transatlantic voyages too.

[TrentePieds]

Angela:

You are concerned about safety, and rightly so. So as another way of coming at your problem consider this: It is NOT the boat that takes her crew safely across oceans. It's the CREW (potentially you) that takes the boat safely across oceans.

That means that a skipper possessed of an appropriate level of skill can take an "inferior" boat across an ocean and, by the same token, a skipper not in possession of the requisite skills may well take a "superior" boat to perdition.

Consider this also: You are tackling the "problem" the right way by asking questions, so you may learn. Just remember that you may not get the answer you wish for :-). Boats are infinitely complex devises with a great many interdependent systems, and indeed with a great many interdependent design and construction considerations.

The designer picks and chooses from a vast "library" of such considerations and produces a design that is "fit for her trade", as the saying once was. He designs for the waters and the weathers where the boat is to be used, and for the purpose the prospective owner has in mind.

I see you are in Dallas, i.e. you need, I presume, a boat to sail in the Gulf and maybe to the Caribbean. I am on the opposite corner of the continent and need a boat that will serve my particular purposes well in the waters between here and Alaska. Ergo, my boat will have to differ from your boat in many respects. But just how they must be different is a very complex argument that you will learn to cope with as your knowledge grows.

I am a firm believer in getting started by joining a sailing club so you will have a chance to go out with experienced people in a variety of the boats that are in common use where you are. I suggest you do that before you plunk down money for a boat. You should have the experiential ballast of some PRACTICAL sailing before you spend your money. Doing that will serve you far better, as a novice, than trying to understand the complex considerations of boat design and their effect on the costs of boats.

All the best to you.

TrentePieds

[Cliffhanger]

A 30 year old Rolls Royce will probably cost more than a new Toyota Corolla. The Toyota is probably safer, with airbags, satnav, parking sensors and look more modern. Which is a better buy? Hard to say. It is like comparing apples and oranges.

Boats are no different.

[Midwesterner]

Originally Posted by Angela79

Hi Bill,
...... Getting the feeling that few things here are straightforward...

Yes, you have that exactly right. Much of this is based on opinion. It is a lot like asking a group of farmers and construction workers what's the best pickup truck. You will find the guys who own Ford's, or GMC's, or Chevys, or Toyota Tundras, all claiming that theirs is the best pick up.

There is some sense that the so-called production boats, (Catalina's, Hunter, Beneteau, Juneau) were somewhat mass-produced, compared to other brands that produced boats one at a time. Whether that necessarily makes a better boat, may be a matter of opinion.

All of those manufacturers have produced boats that have successfully sailed around the world.

To some extent, the debate has to do with boats that have a bolted on fin keel, that is formed as a separate part, and then bolted on to the hull of the boat. Some consider the boats that have encapsulated keels, or full keels, that are molded as an original part of the hull, to be safer and more reliable for bluewater cruising.

There are also some boats that have a reputation for having beefier chain plates, (the attachment points for the shrouds that hold up the mast), and standing rigging, (all of the cables that hold up the mast), and a stiffer interior structure that adds the stiffness to the plastic shell that is the hull.

A good illustration, are the Imoca class 60 boats, like the ones that have just completed the Vendee
Globe around the world race, over the past three months. These are race boats that have been compared to Formula One race cars. They are sailed around the world, but they are lightweight, and austerely appointed inside.

The typical Imoca 60 foot sailboat, although twice as long as my boat, a Bristol 35.5, is not twice as heavy. It also is capable of going three to four times faster than my boat. But, in some ways, it would be a lot like trying to drive a Formula 1 race car in the Baja offroad desert race.

Just a few weeks ago, one of these race boats was broken in two, when a wave broke off the front third of the boat, causing it to sink in a few minutes. I don't imagine this would be likely to happen to a Pacific Seacraft 44, which is actually heavier than an Imoca 60 race boat. It's not just about weight, it's about the construction of the boat, that makes it stronger, but would make it heavier, and sail slower.

I purchased my Bristol, because it has an encapsulated keel, and a rudder that is mounted on a skeg, and is a somewhat heavier boat for its size, and could be sailed off shore, if I choose to.

[hpeer]

could be sailed off shore, if I choose to.

OR sailed onto a rock, inshore, where rocks are.

Nigle Calder is arguable a pretty knowledgeable and adept sailor. His book on reading charts has a pic of his boat out of the water perched on a rock.

Makes me feel better when I do stuff like that, and I have.

But I don't need to get a survey after it happens.

Someone should make a matrix if stuff that happens to loose a boat.

Risks are one axis: Keel falls off, rudder falls off, fire, holed, whatever.

The other axis is general boat category: encapsulated long full keel, encapsulated fin with spade rudder, steel, aluminum, cat, whatever.

Then note which kinds of boats are susceptible to which risks. Maybe find a way to weight the risk.

Maybe find a way to also note risk by cruising type: groundings are high probability for inland cruisers but rudder failures are a bigger problem for long distance sailor.

Good idea for someone else to do during lock down. LOL

[Angela79]

"The youtube channel "Sailing Lady Kay" recently did a review of most of the boats that you mention, and they are worth watching for a newb.
"

Thanks for the rec - His vids are great for learning the differences between makes. I had no idea Jeanneau was a part of Beneteau.

[vpbarkley]

Many Beneteaus were sailed to the US from France for delivery as new boats. Most of the boats that partake in the ARC rallies (across oceans) are production boats. For coastal cruising a production boat (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Catalina etc.) is really ideal.

As in most things there is no end how much you can spend. I love Ferraris but they are terrible cars.

[DEAN2140]

Here is a great discussion of what constitutes a solid blue water cruiser.
Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

[FabioC]

As a Jeanneau owner, here is my take on "production boats" vs. "bluewater cruisers".

I think each category is simply optimized for different audiences. Each has compromises.

Production boats are design to offer great comfort for relatively short passages, at a comparatively "low" price. The designs are very attractive if you look for enjoying the boat island hopping or on coastal cruises, especially in newer boats with the gigantic cockpits and the wide sterns, and the open layouts downstairs.

Since the target is to contain cost, there are compromises in the fabrication (the most significant one is the bonded grid vs. the laminated grd) and in the interior materials. That does not mean that these boats do not have attractive interiors. On the contrary, the emphasis is to have great looking interiors, but if you go look at the details, for example, you will be disappointed by the workmanship and the use of laminates rather than solid wood. Also, this boats are plenty safe, just not built as solid as "bluewater" boats.

Bluewater boats are targeted for offshore sailing and long-distance cruising. They are much more comfortable to sail in high seas and are constructed for durability in harsher conditions, without cutting corners to save cost. They have their compromises too, they do not have large cockpits for entertainment, swim platforms, airy interiors, large heads, etc.

Each category of boats excels in the purpose they were designed for. It does not mean that boats in one category cannot do what boats in the other category do, just not as well or as comfortably as boats designed for the purpose.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

MANY MANY Jeanneaus and Beneteaus have crossed oceans. They just weren't specifically designed for that. The best simple explanation I've heard is simply this - if the weather is perfect and all goes well ANY boat in good shape can cross an ocean. But what happens in a nasty storm? How do you move about down below? Make food in the galley to eat? How strong is the hull? The rigging? The steering? These "production" boats are NOT death traps, they just were not designed for this set of parameters. They may survive just fine, but...

It is my experience that 90% of the prestige brands have also never sailed an ocean. Apples for apples comparison is tough to do but the most admirable folks I've met have been sailing old models that don't fit into the upper echelon but have grandfathered into the acceptable category by way of doing and not really listening to the brochure reading lot.

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Angela:

You are concerned about safety, and rightly so. So as another way of coming at your problem consider this: It is NOT the boat that takes her crew safely across oceans. It's the CREW (potentially you) that takes the boat safely across oceans.

That means that a skipper possessed of an appropriate level of skill can take an "inferior" boat across an ocean and, by the same token, a skipper not in possession of the requisite skills may well take a "superior" boat to perdition.

Consider this also: You are tackling the "problem" the right way by asking questions, so you may learn. Just remember that you may not get the answer you wish for :-). Boats are infinitely complex devises with a great many interdependent systems, and indeed with a great many interdependent design and construction considerations.

The designer picks and chooses from a vast "library" of such considerations and produces a design that is "fit for her trade", as the saying once was. He designs for the waters and the weathers where the boat is to be used, and for the purpose the prospective owner has in mind.

I see you are in Dallas, i.e. you need, I presume, a boat to sail in the Gulf and maybe to the Caribbean. I am on the opposite corner of the continent and need a boat that will serve my particular purposes well in the waters between here and Alaska. Ergo, my boat will have to differ from your boat in many respects. But just how they must be different is a very complex argument that you will learn to cope with as your knowledge grows.

I am a firm believer in getting started by joining a sailing club so you will have a chance to go out with experienced people in a variety of the boats that are in common use where you are. I suggest you do that before you plunk down money for a boat. You should have the experiential ballast of some PRACTICAL sailing before you spend your money. Doing that will serve you far better, as a novice, than trying to understand the complex considerations of boat design and their effect on the costs of boats.

All the best to you.

TrentePieds

A lot of sound common sense here & also in many other comments on this thread.

You are right. It is not that simple.

[Don C L]

I've always driven Hondas and Chevies. They seem to have gotten me everywhere just fine. I visited friends in Germany a while back and they let me borrow their Mercedes 320 wagon. Now I get it. Now I actually think it MIGHT be worth the extra bucks for the extra quality.
It's kinda like that for boats too sometimes.

[RONHARDIN]

I have heard it said - HUNTER builds a cabin (very comfortable) and puts a boat around it. CATALINA builds a boat and puts a cabin in it. I have owned both in the 40 ft. range and feel safe in both. If you are just Coastal by all means get comfort.

[Clivevon]

In my humble opinion, for what its worth, & in no particular order of priority I would suggest to you that:

Both you & your husband get in as much seatime as you can before buying any boat. You sound like this is your first boat buy?
Join a club, sail as crew, charter with a skipper, do some courses. Look in detail at the syllabuses for the different levels of courses offered by the British RYA (Royal Yachting Association) & try to find the local equivalent.
One of the most important things to do is for you to work out what you want the boat for? What do you want to use it for? To use an analogy, you wouldnt want to try using a family saloon as a liveaboard RV. Or a 4 wheel drive pickup as a sports car. But they are all motor vehicles. Boats are just as varied.
You are unlikely to find a boat that does everything. If your ideas for use seriously change, then you may need to change your boat in future.
For short offshore cruises in fair weather with leisurely stops along the way - Beneteaus, Jeanneaus etc are built for that. No problem. Or you might think about a catamaran..
Myself, I like to have a boat that will look after me in rough seas if I ever need it to so I sail a nearly 50 year old design with a balanced hull, less space down below, heavy hull etc. My wife has never let me live down the joy she saw on my face as I explained that the boat would quickly come back upright if we ever got rolled over... (never happened) She wont come sailing anymore though.. Not even if I got a catamaran.

Since the Viking era, the sea hasn't changed. Sailing yachts built 100 years ago had the benefit of 1000 years of evolution. What did they look like back then? A lot different to how they look now. Why is that? Lots of reasons & it is not just because of the invention of glass fibre.

Do you want a boat that can heave to if need be to safely ride out a storm at sea, or one that offers most comfort as a floating caravan in port. Where will you spend most of your time?

Do you want an easily sailed, fast boat (in fair weather) or one built like the proverbial brick s******se which will need a bit of wind to get her going.

Some hulls are made of a foam sandwich - others are solid.

Some boats will still be going strong in 50 years time - others are more disposable.

Nothing wrong with either. It all depends what they are designed to do, what they are designed to be used for. That is your choice. Get that right & you will be fine.