Need some help understanding differences...

[RRJames]

On any cruising boat of any age, look at the standing rigging. Is it conspicuously heavier than the boats around it? Does the deck flex when traversed? Does it rock when boarding? Can you cause the hull to flex with your thumb? If possible, review the lamination schedule by which it was constructed. Are the portlight frames and winches bronze?

Look for signs of any leakage. Have the pumps ever been used? Any penetrations below the waterline on the hull?

No doubt better checklists are available online than what I provided above, but this is a good preliminary to see if further inspection is worth your time.

A professional survey might be a good investment if you're really interested in it.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

When your on the boat of your dreams -imagine the Super Bowl Linemen roughing it up in and on the boat. If they can break it --mother nature will do it at sea.
If the linemen are on board in three piece suites for cocktails at anchor, any boat will do.

Sea Kindly, Righting moment, Scantlings, displacement, full-keel, fin-keel
Deck Stepped or keel stepped mast, chainplates, Epoxy-polyester---these are the basics of the vessel. Read Chapmans, Study the old-timers like Herrishoff, Sparkman & Stevens, Carl Alburg, and the list of designers goes on and on.

What do you want the boat for and what do yo expect it to do?
Your first boat --most likely wont be your last---well unless you make a HUGE mistake. Hunter 26 for a trip around the Horn would not fair you well.

[NormanMartin]

Adding background resources to CaptJPMcGuire above here is a handy reference to help evaluate a vessel.

Sail Calculator – Tom Dove

Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 3200+ boats

http://tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html

[raahell]

I've read every one of the posts in this thread and the comment that I would re-enforce, based on my own experience (having 2 sailboat ownerships under my belt and being a professional mariner as well as a recreational one) is as follows:

Don't buy a sailboat without taking the opportunity to first sail on a number of different types of sailboats, in the kinds of environments you wish to sail in. This is time well spent and will be tons of fun, so how can you lose? BTW if you DON'T have tons of fun, answering the question "WHY?" will perhaps give you the most important insights as to the feasibility of your intent to become a sailor, AS WELL as the type of boat that you will want to own and sail in. Others have mentioned how to sail without being an owner. Lots of options there.

In the course of a few months, with dedicated effort on your part, you could partake in several voyages in different boats, with different Captains and crew (also some great eye-opening lessons to be had to inform your future behavior as Captain or crew). Arrange these voyages to start as a day-sail, then a weekend voyage, then a week and finally to 10-14 days. It's important, of course, to sail with a Captain/owner and crew that you can trust and who is willing to teach you as you sail with them. You will learn so much more and create lasting memories (and perhaps friendships), compared to sitting in front of your screen reading comments (like this) on CF, watching Youtube vids, etc..

Also, bring a book or two on sailboat design and construction with you on your trips. There's always non-sailing time to gain a little theory and this will help you better understand why the boat you're on is what it is and behaves the way it does.

Good luck!

[SailMoonShadow]

Here's a good look at how cost savings with modern production boats can give you a mighty big headache later on...

https://youtu.be/C3RzxLW7t1U

In older (1970s-1990s) the "grid" he talks about didn't exist, instead the strengthening structure was built in as part of the hull structure as a kind of "carry over" from wooden construction.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by SailMoonShadow

Here's a good look at how cost savings with modern production boats can give you a mighty big headache later on...

https://youtu.be/C3RzxLW7t1U

In older (1970s-1990s) the "grid" he talks about didn't exist, instead the strengthening structure was built in as part of the hull structure as a kind of "carry over" from wooden construction.

An excellent presentation. You get what you pay for.

[Stu Jackson]

There has been some excellent advice shared in this thread.


There have been thousands of books written about this type of question. One that I've found that summarizes things very well is this one:


https://www.amazon.com/Nigel-Calders...%2C1186&sr=8-1


It also includes a lot of other boating information that mya save you $$ by NOT having to buy even more books!


And, whatever boats you get closer to choosing from, take a look around to see if there is an active owners association. They always save you from reinventing the wheel.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Angela79

These two sentences make a lot of sense to me: "Some are made to be the comfortable equivalent of a condo at anchor/dock/mooring" and "Another factor is simply prestige - just like cars, some boat makers make boats for the masses, and some make yachts for...not...the masses. After all, a Ford and a Ferrari are both made from the same stuff."



So the Jeanneaus and Beneteaus are the comfortable condos not really meant to cross oceans. Just out of curiosity what is the concern of sailing these production boats across the ocean? Mast blows off? Rudder falls off? Whole hull cracks in 40 knot winds? I'm not being facetious I just would really like to know. Thank you for the replies!

It’s not that Jeanneaus and Beneteaus are dock condos not designed to go offshore, many have crossed oceans and gone round the world. Thing is they haven’t gotten unlucky.

Unlucky would be encountering a really bad storm or maybe being in a pretty bad storm with some undiagnosed structural problems.

Cheeki Rafiki is an example of a boat that made bade decisions, got unlucky and had structural issues. The boat had grounded and the grid was damaged. The grid was repaired. The boat was sailed in the North Atlantic off season and encountered a storm, keel came loose. Crew calls for help but when CG arrived hull was overturned and keel gone. No sign of crew.

Going off season was a bad decision.
They were unlucky in encountering as bad a storm they did, but that was somewhat foreseeable being off season.
The grid repair may not have been done right. Using glue for the grid-hull bond makes diagnosing the extent of damage harder and the repair harder.

It’s sort of like going to Alaska or northern Canada by road. You can take a Dodge Neon, Subaru Outback or a Jeep CJ7. For a lot of things up there any of the 3 will do fine. Some snow or mud and it need to be the 4WD vehicles, Outback or CJ7.
Things get really bad only the CJ7 will make it.

The Jeanneaus and Beneteaus are like the Outback.

A skilled driver can probably keep going in an Outback as far as an unskilled driver in the Jeep.

Likewise crew skill can make up for some of the shortcoming of a boat and a good boat can make up for some of the crew’s shortcomings.

[SuW]

in the early 90s we took a week-long "Basic Cruising" Canadian Yachting Assoc. course in the British Virgin Islands.

4 students, 2 instructors on board a new Beneteau 45 Sunsail charter boat.
The course consisted of sailing from anchorage to anchorage in the islands - calm weather - with some training exercises in between.

The boat was great, exciting to sail, lots of space - beautiful interior with three cabins, two head compartments, showers, enormous galley and dining areas - below and in the cockpit.

Two years later we took the "Advanced Cruising" course in a sister ship of the first boat. It had been in charter for 3 years at that point.

This time we sailed further with two overnight passages from the BVI to St Maartin and back, in moderately rough conditions.

Outbound, the trip was horrendous. Even moving about the boat was really difficult with such big open spaces down below, highly polished belowdeck flooring and not enough hand holds within reach.

On deck was bad too, few anchor points for harnesses, and the sloping cabin roof and poor non-skid made working at the mast difficult.

Some berths were useless - crew had to sleep on the floor wedged under tables etc.

Cooking underway was a serious hazard.

The boat's design was not for heavy weather sailing, imo.

Worse, were the groans and cracking noises emitted from the structure below. One bulkhead appeared to be loosening. Water was dripping in over the galley through one of the glued-in portlights.

Then sail slides started popping out of the mast track. We ended up having to shorten sail to make any progress and then to motor sail.

(At the Sunsail base in St. Maartin the old Aussie in charge of maintenance wasn't very complimentary about these boats. I learned some new swear words! We got the sail slides replaced and the rigging tightened.)

The passage back to Tortola was fun and uneventful - lighter conditions and a pleasant sail.

A nice cruising boat in fine weather. Not prudent for use at sea for long voyages.

And be careful about buying a boat that has been chartered. They get more hard use in a year than most boats get in a lifetime.

[Angela79]

Just wanted to thank everyone for the knowledgeable, practical and kind replies. There is so much useful information here and I appreciate all opinions.

There is a lot more sailing to be done, a lot more reading/researching to be done and I’m looking forward to seeing a lot of wonderful boats. At the end of the search I’m sure I will be happy to go with what my husband prefers, as he is much less excited about living aboard than I am. I'm in my 40s and realistically would hope to be on the boat full-time within a year from now. It’s feasible but we both need to get in much better shape and would need to adhere to a budget.

I don’t talk to anybody about this dream because out of the three people I told, two thought me nuts. I don’t care. I do not want to spend the next three decades and beyond trying to keep up with the Joneses and stave off wrinkles.

Thank you again for all the replies!!

[Clivevon]

You are entirely welcome. Hope it helped & good luck with your dreams.

[Midwesterner]

Originally Posted by Angela79

....I don’t talk to anybody about this dream because out of the three people I told, two thought me nuts. I don’t care. I do not want to spend the next three decades and beyond trying to keep up with the Joneses and stave off wrinkles.

Thank you again for all the replies!!

Ha! I have the same problem here in Missouri. What everybody knows about boating here in Missouri is either a ski boat on the lake, bass fishing boat, or a pontoon weekend party barge.

Can't tell you how many times I have shared my retirement plans people tell me I'm crazy and have a hundred questions about really basic things like, where do you go to the bathroom? How will you eat? What if it sinks?

Just about everybody here in the Midwest has an uncle or somebody who owns a motorhome or travel RV trailer.
And I can't tell you how many times I have had conversations like, "Well, do you know anybody who has motorhome.?"
"Oh yes my uncle!. It's really cool, it can sleep 6, has a bathroom and shower, and a little kitchenette to cook their food and a cool little dining area that can seat four!"
"Yeah well, it's like that, but it's a boat and it floats"

Oddly, one of those people concerned, is my wife, who grew up in the New York suburbs just north of New York City, not 20 minutes from the nearest marina on Long Island Sound and says, growing up, she never met anybody who owned a sailboat. How is this possible!?

And my 20-something kids we're concerned. I tried to get everybody out sailing so they could see. You just can't understand it until you visualize it and experience. I got my wife oit on my cruise and learn captained bareboat skipper course.

My kids work, and it's been hard to get them together. It took me different charter trips to get each of my family members, one by one, out on a boat.

Each one had the same amazed reaction, and said, "Oh wow, Dad! This is really cool! Oh, now I get it! This looks like this is gonna be fun!"

Yes! Finally!

It's hard.

[Enfant Du Vent]

Ahoy Angela79:


You said, "...I don’t talk to anybody about this dream because out of the three people I told, two thought me nuts. I don’t care". This reminds me of the closing conversation in Zorba The Greek. Zorba says to the Englishman, "You lack only one thing--a touch of madness, without that you will never dare cut the strings and be free." And the comment from my close friend who said, "Well your intention to quit your job and go sailing certainly made YOU the topic of conversation in the coffee room. Half said, 'The man is crazy. He's giving up a perfectly good career. The other half agreed, but they said it wistfully'."


You also spoke of probably going aground. ALL sailors--who go anywhere but their own harbor--go aground sometime. The wise sailors don't compound the problem by hurrying and making another mistake. Talk to every one you can, to learn what works/what doesn't work. One solution is to sit there and wait for the tide to come back in....the only thing you'll hurt is your dignity. <grin>



Old classic versus modern comfortable: MY bias is toward the "classic" heavy full keep designs. But my cruising was multiple trips from Eastern Canada, coastal to Florida, and then over to the Bahamas. Plus one "fast" voyage back--Bahamas / Bermuda / Halifax, N.S.



Bon Voyage. Join the rest of the crazies.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Enfant Du Vent

Ahoy Angela79:
I must go down to the shore again,
the lonely shore and the sea
And all I ask is a small ship.....and a frontal lobotomy

You said, "...I don’t talk to anybody about this dream because out of the three people I told, two thought me nuts. I don’t care". This reminds me of the closing conversation in Zorba The Greek. Zorba says to the Englishman, "You lack only one thing--a touch of madness, without that you will never dare cut the strings and be free." And the comment from my close friend who said, "Well your intention to quit your job and go sailing certainly made YOU the topic of conversation in the coffee room. Half said, 'The man is crazy. He's giving up a perfectly good career. The other half agreed, but they said it wistfully'."


You also spoke of probably going aground. ALL sailors--who go anywhere but their own harbor--go aground sometime. The wise sailors don't compound the problem by hurrying and making another mistake. Talk to every one you can, to learn what works/what doesn't work. One solution is to sit there and wait for the tide to come back in....the only thing you'll hurt is your dignity. <grin>



Old classic versus modern comfortable: MY bias is toward the "classic" heavy full keep designs. But my cruising was multiple trips from Eastern Canada, coastal to Florida, and then over to the Bahamas. Plus one "fast" voyage back--Bahamas / Bermuda / Halifax, N.S.



Bon Voyage. Join the rest of the crazies.

I must go down to the shore again,
the lonely shore and the sea
And all I ask is a small ship.....and a frontal lobotomy

I love your mantra!