Hull Shapes and Behaviour in Heavy Seas

[stormalong]

I see that you have done a lot of research. Why do you think that you will have a different experience than the current owner in regard to dockage?

I do virtually all my own work and it keeps the cost down so I am with you on that.

However, that is a huge boat to learn on. You may find yourself in trouble and may not be able to handle it. You work on airplanes. Would you learn to fly on a Boeing 777 or a Cessna 150?

It would be interesting to know the ownership history of the boat. I would be more comfortable buying a boat that has had long term owners than one that has had several short term owners.

As others have said - steel boats rust from the inside out. A thorough survey of hull condition is a necessity . Rust often hides behind cabinetry and other hidden areas.

[Ken Z]

I don t know the boat, don t know your family, kinda know your skill set. If your family can take orders, not bicker, you are not a order giver to excess, common sense prevails, the boat is sound, ie survey, have money for maintance plus 40% for the unseen, buy her go slow, learn constantly, dont let mistakes get in the way, go for it. A 63’ steel boat should handle seas better than a lotof 44’. you have a few personalities to work with.👍😎

[billgewater]

My two bob's worth. First, although minor, is that metal boats often can be noisy, particularly with small waves gently slapping under the stern at mooring.
Galvanized rigging? I had it for 40 years and all was just great until the eyes at the ends corroded. The wires were in good condition and tested satisfactorily. However I replaced them all with Dyneema. Not cheap, but dramatically lighter and I can easily do all my own splices. I can carry a complete spare set of rigging in a plastic bag.
On any large boat you really do need to be a jack of all trades and on a larger vessel you can carry the required tools. Bench grinder, drill press, etc. Power tools. But larger boats still consume enormous time for standard maintenance.
It would be a real learning experience for your kids.
However, I have been around the international cruising environment for many years and I have noted the following. Teenagers generally don't work all that well. They really are at the explorative stage of life and need to get away from the oldies and generate relationships on their terms outside the family. Have you heard land based parents describing themselves as the taxi service as they spend any spare time delivering the kids to football, music lessons, dance classes, sailing days etc. That's the norm. Holidays, short trips are OK but long term living on board is a much more demanding environment. Sure, all families are different and there certainly are successful family cruising examples.
Generally the successful ones were where the children were prepubescent. Much more dependent on the parents and closer emotionally to them. The parents were well educated and did the schooling and involved the children in everything. When ashore they took the kids to every possible venue that allowed them to run amok with other kids. For those with teenagers, the most successful model was where the progeny attended boarding school and joined the family during school breaks. School is a social environment more than anything else, but it also the place where challenging subjects such as mathematics and the sciences (think about science labs., trade workshops etc.) are well presented. IT is also presented at a level that few families could possibly manage.
I can list many occasions where the parents wanted to go family cruising but the teenagers just were not interested enough in the life style and the boat now sits for sale in a marina.
I clearly recall one boat with two teenagers on board (both about 14/15 yrs old). The family was dysfunctional. The father would beat up his son who took off as soon as he could. This boy just could not relate to other teenagers and would treat them the way his father treated him. The daughter had no social skills and the moment she went ashore she got pregnant. The mother was one very unhappy woman.
Another example was a Queensland boat (about 16 m as I recall). The teenage daughter took to writing magazine articles that were a joy to read. It was evident from her articles that she just loved the adventures. Her brother just wanted to go back to Queensland and get into the business his father made his money from. He left the boat and went back to QLD. Don't mess around with teenagers. They are totally unpredictable. "The parents want to run away from home because the kids are driving them batty".
Steel? I have seen three steel boats dragged off reefs and although battered, remained un-punctured and afloat. Once the rust issue is managed, I doubt if there is any material that has the properties of malleability and tensile strength of steel.
I hope it all works well for you and the family, but I would suggest that the family issues are greater than the "boat" ones.

[Wallaby]

The primary question is who is/was the designer and was the original builder qualified?



It reminds me of a 60+ft steel boat that passed through my marina several years ago. It was designed and built by an 'engineer,' not an experienced boat designer and builder. It was narrow with a very high freeboard. The mid-cockpit was massive with minimal drains. The quality of construction, particularly the placement of dissimilar metals was very disturbing. The owner had unique ideas about design, including a keel without ballast. It heeled at the dock!


When a marine surveyor was asked to survey it for insurance, he took one look and departed. Later, several tons of sandbags were delivered to the marina, and stacked in the bilge...

[hpeer]

We have 2 steel, hard chine boats. They are very different.

33’, cutter, 3 chines, Ted Brewer “Murry 33”, 8 tons
44’, cutter, 4 chines, Alan Pape “SteelMaid, 20 tons. The top chine has some tumblehome.

First, audio gauge is OK but basically useless. I’ve had numerous surveys done and they have never found a weak spot. You MUST do your own survey, all of the interior, any place water can accumulate. Tools are good torch light, screwdriver, hammer, bad attitude.

The 33’er can slam in a seaway, annoying but that’s all. When I first had her I got caught out and had her over 10 knots DDW in 4 meter seas. Like a duck in water.

The 44’er doesn’t slam, she just chugs through. Relatively comfortable. It’s more like she “mushes” through. In certain conditions she can roll your eyes out. The way she is laid out the companionway, forward bulkhead of cockpit, is right at the center of pitch and roll. So it makes for a nice place to sit in weather.

But this boat has only two chines, so she has a very flat bottom, likely the bilges will be shallow, more like a production plastic boat. Both our boats have a much deeper V, and the big boat has quite deep bilges which are used for tankage. So I don’t know how relevant my experience is to such a different boat.

Absolutely, positively, include in the cost of a big auto pilot. When you are learning or short handed it is really needed. For a while you will all be green horns, this will essentially give you an extra pair of hands.

I came to sailing in my late 50’s and have done a good bit of single handed work. The 44’er is a lot to handle. On the other hand she takes good care of me and is pretty hard to get too upset. You may think you will die, most likely you won’t. I can’t compare to plastic boats, never sailed one.

Displacement is really the better metric than length when comparing two boats. And that boat is nowhere near 20 tons, or if it is it is made of tin foil. Check yacht world for big steel boats to get a better feel for reality. I can believe 6-1/2’ draft.

As displacement goes so goes sail size. That’s a lotta ‘effing sail to hoist. Feed those boys lots, they will need the weight.

I’m guessing 40 tons is more accurate. Anyway get a better feel for this. Then look around for yards that can haul a boat that size. You will need a DIY yard and may need one that allows liveaboards.

Good luck.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Thalas

Great looking boat, but yeah a handful for a single-hander.

Question for anyone who might know.. I understand that the radar is on the mizzen mast to not interfere with the jib, but doesn't the main mast then affect the radar signature in about a 10 degree arc right in front of the boat? Or is the outbound signal wide enough that it "wraps around" (sorry for the awful technical term) the main mast and can catch any reflection?

I have my Radar a little over midway on the Mizzen on my 40 footer and it works perfectly. No interference from the main mast.

[Maka]

Spent a good portion of my life in the Industrial Coatings business.


If you can access all of the interior of the hull you can coat it once and be done with it.
It will never rust in the future. This will take a lot of prep including sandblasting or grindng to bare metal. But done in sections it is doable.

Exterior requires more maintenance...but again doable. Every Navy in the world does it as well a all the big commercial ships.



If you and your family are anything like the other Aussies I know this will be a walk in the park for you. Not many realize how tough and tenacious Aussies are.


Keep up the due diligence and you will be fine.



Sounds like you are off to a Wonder Full family experience.
Be sure to keep us posted on your progress.

[NevisDog]

What a beauty - only the haulouts and mooring fees and cost of sails, rigging and hull maintenance would stop me. Any boat this size/weight will be perfect in heavy weather, single chines and low deadrise angle not an issue. Keel and rudder look well-designed - couldn't wish for better. Maybe ask your surveyor (or the rigger who maintains the boat) to do an inclining test if there is any doubt about the design pedigree or build - overweight decks/coachroof or minimal ballast would be an unusual problem but most likely a deal-breaker if the build is overweight/under-ballasted.

Is there a mountain of fit-out work to be done inside? If so, this will likely take 3 times longer than your worst estimate, at least. Of the two beautifully fitted-out steel boats I considered buying, one had all internal woodwork easily dismantle-able for easy hull inspection/repair; the other I'd have had to destroy all the lovely varnished fit-out just to see the inside hull. Guess which one I put an offer on

[gjordan]

Having gone from a beautiful wineglass shaped hull (Contessa 26) to a hard chine steel Van DeStadt 37 foot , later to a Peterson 44, I would say dont worry at all about a chine boat. Worry about if the builder built it to plan or got into the A LITTLE STRONGER HERE AND THERE attitude, which makes a boat a heavy dog. Make sure the spars are actually what was called for and not something that was for sale cheap even though it was many feet short. Some things to look for before you spend money on a haul and survey. The plating under toilets, sinks, reefers/freezers, air conditioning units. Even if you have to take a spare battery with you, dump all of the chain out of the locker and inspect. You can do all of this without paying for a haul and get a pretty good idea of conditions. Beware of any wood bolted directly to steel. Almost always it will create a rust problem. If you have to sandblast the inside of a finished boat you will have grit problems forever. On another note, the Lister will probably out last you, your kids and your grandkids. If it runs good, dont think modern is better. Just my 2 cents worth. ____Grant.

[Fore and Aft]

From the photos it looks like the rudder has been extended on the aft end? There is a reason why he is open to a lower price. It’s bloody huge (big maintenance costs), steel, hard chine and what looks like a home built interior? Most people would do the math and run a mile.
When was she last sand blasted back to steel and painted? A lot of steel boats I have surveyed the owners have neglected removing any paint and there is 20 years+ of build up below the waterline.
It’s also very hard to survey a steel yacht without being able to completely access the interior hull surface. If it’s rusty then it’s going to be a huge effort to sand blast it back to a NACE white metal standard.
Cheers

[Metal Boat]

Fore and Aft



Your assessment is entirely accurate, the boat is old, no longer fashionable and needs a lot of work. Everybody wants a plastic boat with all the toys. My problem is for some obscure reason I like pain and always seem to do things the hard way. The interior is supposedly covered in a high quality epoxy priming system and the hulls last anitfoul was done with ablative self polishing paint. The lure is that this hull today would cost $250,000 plus to reproduce. I will put up some pics of the interior which is only partially finished and fortunately this will allow me access to most areas. I am a painter/mechanic by trade (aircraft background) and I understand perfectly what bare metal means. The hull has a few layers on that is clear. I think the interior will actually be reasonably rust free its the bilges that concern me. Putting the interiot pics up in my gallery now...


It does look like the rudder was extended I wonder did it lack rudder authority.

[Metal Boat]

Billgewater

On any large boat you really do need to be a jack of all trades and on a larger vessel you can carry the required tools. Bench grinder, drill press, etc. Power tools. But larger boats still consume enormous time for standard maintenance.

this is a very important consideration and I have thought about this i need to carry all my tools

[Metal Boat]

The Inventory. Apparently the Designer Geoof Oakes had some 170 plastic hulls to his name on the South Coast of Aus and this boat was designed and built by him personally, its a one off lowering its value as it has no pedigree.


Designer
Geoff Oakes
Builder
Geoff Oakes
Length
63' - 19.20m
Beam
16ft
Draft
6' 6"
Displacement
22 Tonnes
Keel / Ballast
Steel and Led
Hull Material
Steel
Deck Material
Steel
Engine Make
Lister
Engine
Lister Marine 6 Cyl Diesel
Number Engines
1
Horse Power
72
Fuel Type
Diesel
Engine Hours
75
2nd Engine Hrs
N/A
Fuel Consumption
5-10 Ltrs ph
Max Speed
6 Knots Cruise speed (Engine)
Cruise Speed
24 Knots max speed under sail.
Propulsion
Engine/Sail
Thrusters
N/A
Genset
N/A
Fuel
500 Ltrs
Water
500 Ltrs
Accommodation
Split level Sleeping and Galley, fore and aft.
Cabins
2
Berths
Built in bunk rooms to house 6. Potential to house 12 persons total. All berths come with storage
Galley
Ample cupboard space, safe at sea holding Cupboards above, needs doors fitted on underneath and side storage shelves. Microwave, twin sinks, generous draining bench both sides of sink. Large wall where seating is to build further storage space. A Dining table needs to be fitted.
Refrigeration
Ice Chiller Chest with drainage port.
Freezer
Nil
Stove
Kero press stove
Water Maker
Nil
Hotwater System
Nil
Shower
1 Fittings in place, taps, drain, needs a cabinet maker to do finishing. Water to be connected.
Toilet
1 Hand pump and Electric.
Entertainment
Nil built in.
Air Conditioning
Nil
Dinghy
Zodiac Inflatable 4 Persons
Outboard
Suzuki 2.5 Hp
Ground Tackle
Anchor Winch - Thor
Safety Gear
12 Persons Sea Saver Life Raft.
Bilge Pumps
Whale Gusher - hand pump
Life Raft
Sea Saver Life Raft - 12 Persons.
Epirb
Yes
Life Jackets
Yes
Flares
Yes
Fire Protection
Yes and Fire Blanket in Galley.
Electrics
2x 120w solar panels, 6 house bank batteries 12v, 2 engine room bank 12v (both banks deep cycle batteries).
Electronics
GPS, Furuno Radar, Depth sounder, Radios.
Sail Inventory
Saxby main and mizzern sails, both excellent condition. Staycil needs replacing, big Genoah X/Gretel needs slight repair.
Mast / Rigging
Aluminum main and mizzern masts good condition, steel bowsprit. Original masts to the boat when launched in 1995.
Deck Gear
7x Harken 2 speed winches. Thor dual anchor winch, rear dinghy lift winches.

[Fore and Aft]

That is definitely a blokes version of a galley? Where is the bench space and you could not seriously expect the Mrs to cook for the family on those 2 burners?
I also noticed the toilet, can you sit on it and your feet touch the cabin floor?
She is also pretty narrow by today’s standards, that’s no big deal but cuts down on the interior volume.
No wonder she is cheap.......
Cheers

[Metal Boat]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

That is definitely a blokes version of a galley? Where is the bench space and you could not seriously expect the Mrs to cook for the family on those 2 burners?


I also noticed the toilet, can you sit on it and your feet touch the cabin floor?
She is also pretty narrow by today’s standards, that’s no big deal but cuts down on the interior volume.
No wonder she is cheap.......
Cheers

The fitout is a joke, the stove is Kero and at the moment its basically something you would take camping. It needs watermakers fridges power etc etc etc. Unfortunately with all things like cars boats and planes at some stage its worth more in pieces to wreck than the worth of the whole unit this boat is not far off that