Hull Shapes and Behaviour in Heavy Seas

[mako]

Welcome Metal Boat - there's a lot of knowledgeable and good advice and opinions being shared with you, but my best advice is to take the words "would not" and interpret them as "be cautious of" because no one knows your family's situation/personality/abilities/temperament except you.

You guys may eventually have the time of your lives, or it might be a disaster and then you bail and cut your losses. Most of us who have owned boats have been there. You trade money for adventure.

To technical matters, honestly I left sailing along time ago to move into slow, displacement trawlers. Hard chine boats may not look as pretty as round hulls, but they have better roll characteristics. Any additional drag that you may be concerned about with a cruising sailboat is absolutely negligible.

My opinion (from blue water powerboats) is that bigger is better. Cost aside, if you spend time at sea, expect rough conditions, or have a typical spouse who does not espouse minimalist living (living in a tiny cabin, crapping in a bucket, etc.) then you'll understand this.

Regarding handling a huge sailboat - well I'll leave that to the others here to comment on. Regarding condition of the boat - get a really good survey including audio-gauging the steel hull and a full engine survey as well.

Good luck!

[Metal Boat]

Wow



Thanks for all the replies,


OK some more clarifications I didn't expect so much detail but its very helpful,


The Engine


As far as I can determine the engine is a Lister HR6 approx 6.2 litre displacement air cooled 124 hp cant find a torque figure. The engine is purported to be recently overhauled 150 hours ago (aint they all) but it looks like a typical air cooled aircraft engine and I assume I can take pots off individually like an aircraft engine. Noisy and hot but should be reliable, I will wear that as long as it has good compression and good oil sample. Parts may be a real problem though. Very comfortable with engines, pulled a lifetime of them to bits, I wont be fast on this type but I will get there with the right manuals. Gearbox is 2:1 and its supposed to be ok.



The Boat Size.


I am painfully aware that cost size is exponential per foot and I would get something smaller if it didn't have to double as a home. There are actually six of us but the eldest girl lives with her boyfriend but could return at any time lolol. What do I do? If it was just the two of us we would be talking 45".


My Sailing experience.


I used to race dinghies and windsurfers as a kid. I understand how to make a boat go, but throw in multiple sails and a lot of weight and rough seas = I know zero.


The Hull Shape.


The bug bit years ago I am now 47. I bought all of Bruce Roberts books in my late 20's and read them from cover to cover. I knew I wanted a metal boat, my opinion has not changed. I don't mind a hard chine, ugly yes but cheaper. I will be grinning from ear to ear if I get to sail a boat like that into a marina full of plastic boats. They will all be asking for my insurance papers in case it gets loose lolol. Perhaps there will be some extra drag but 63" is a pretty respectable LWL. I am searching as to its sea kindliness and comfort, and how it will behave running downwind in big seas eg broach. I assume its a long skinny hull and it will roll about the longitudinal axis but putting pressure trying to lift the keel should lock it in. It will be rolly downwind. I guess I am also looking for gotchas that are obvious about the hull but everyone seems to think its reasonably ok. Beam is supposed to be 16' Draft 6'6" Displacement 22 tonnes but they don't strike me as accurate, I would have thought it heavier and deeper.



The price....


I have been stalking this boat for months watching the owner slowly drop his price until I got to a point I was comfortable. I rang him and liked what he told me but still thought it was too dear. I then tracked down the shipwright and the local commodore from the yacht club and found out heaps more about its history. Both said the hull is sound but both came to a similar conclusion about its worth and told me the owner had knocked back many higher offers, perhaps unwisely. The owner is older 66 and has health problems and he cant moor the boot in the local marina as it is too big. It is tied up at the shipwrights commercial wharf costing 210 per week. I sent him a low offer and to my surprise he said he would consider offers at about that price. I would say he has had enough. This boat has burnt him and yes it is sobering for me, but for him it is a toy for me it will be my home. Will it my burn me? Most likely!


The Family....


I know exactly what is meant by don't scare the flock..... you should try and get them into a light aircraft lolol I will do it very gradually and try to make it heaps of fun. We live near Moreton Bay which is reasonably sheltered and should be a very good light introduction. Rest assured we will be extensively proving the boat before going anywhere serious. I also intend to go to the local yacht clubs and bribe a few of the old salts with beer and whiskey to come sailing with me in the beginning!


Haha look what I found


https://www.stationaryengineparts.co...353-80971.html

[boatman61]

Dont let the chine put you off.. she'll lean a bit till it bites then stick like $h1t to a blanket..

[MartinR]

There is nothing wrong with a chined yacht. I just do not like the look. Personally beauty and sailing performance is what I look for in a boat.

Do not worry about rolling downwind. There is no reason to put up with it. Just adjust course. And do not carry two opposite foresails! Means you have to jibe now and then.

I owned a Lister once, bulletproof engine. Heavy, noisy and warm, though. Was in a wooden boat, and due the heat, the deck above was leaking all the time. So I changed it. No problem in a steel boat. Parts are no problem.

Aircraft engine? For heavy displacement aircraft?

Displacement will be more than 22 tons, you are right.

[Metal Boat]

Aircraft piston engines use horizontally opposed air cooled pots with steel barrels and integral aluminum heads, burning av gas not diesel the air comes from the forward motion not fan forced... an io 360 4 cyl costs around 40,000 AUD to overhaul


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycoming_O-360


unlike the lister they only weigh 150 kg wet lols


I like listers I used to have a stationary engine 6hp cold start really old school

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYle1qK7sko

they are the coolest and they are highly economical sorry thread drift I cant help it

[MartinR]

I think my 40hp Lister was more like 500kg

Anyhow, they are good engines

[anacapaisland42]

Just remember that boats costs escalate with the CUBE of the boat size difference.......ROUGH COST ESTIMATE ...i.e. a 60 foot boat costs to fix is WAY more than twice a 30 footer

Bill

[LeeV]

Now that's cool! Nice thread drift - it was worth it!

[mako]

You can buy those Lister style engines all over India. Amazing machinery but generally about 8hp

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Dont let the chine put you off.. she'll lean a bit till it bites then stick like $h1t to a blanket..

As usual Boatie speaks the truth. I've sailed a big hard chined Ganley steelie, centre cockpit design with cutter rig. Wonderful times in all sorts of big seas around south New Zealand.

If anything hard chines make repairs easier. As if you need to replace a section of hull it's relatively easy to cut out a section and weld in new steel. Minimal fairing needed. And yes I accept that does depend on what's on the inside.

Being steel means it's vital to keep up the maintenance. Also steel boats can't just sit around doing nothing like a plastic boat. Condensation is your enemy. And as someone mentioned they can rust from the inside.

Here's a link to Ganley web site thoughts on steel many might find interesting. I actually think that boat might be a Denis Ganley design.

Don't be put off by the naysayers. Fortunately it works to your advantage as most people don't understand steel boats and so prices reflect the small market.

[Luckyknot]

From the perspective of hull form, motion, and safety, it would do you well to obtain and read The Principles of Yacht Design and anything by Dave Gerr (but specifically The Nature of Boats as well as Boat Strength for Builders, Designers, and Owners). He also has a couple of articles in Westlawn's periodical, Masthead, discussing stability.

All of these references are easy reads for an engineer and will empower you to be able to analyze this boat and any others you may find interesting.

[Don C L]

When I was a kid there was a popular boat around here made of plywood, the Thunderbird. At one time a very active racing class and its hull looked almost identical to yours only smaller. I never sailed one but owners loved them and claimed that chine helped it point well.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

...solid engineering background...

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

...63" steel ketch...

[Emouchet]

There is a good article about hull shape in heavy weather sea on:

https://www.morganscloud.com/2018/09...-torture-test/

This is behind a pay wall, 20$/year for a tones of excellent articles.

and another good one that actually inspired the first post:
https://setsail.com/fpb-78-1-cochise...ual-sea-state/

[sailcrazy]

As one who sails a flat shear line boat, I can tell you that you had better like green water over the bow iwhen sailing to wind in a seaway. And while a family of your size can surely use all the space a 60 footer can offer....hang onto your billfold!