Help pick my next boat - Advice for a newish sailor

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Check out:
20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
20 Affordable Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
Sensible Cruising the Thoreau Approach
atomvoyages.com

That's 3 books and a website that should give you lots to think about

Thanks I'll certainly take an in depth look at these in the next few days, but right off the bat "20 Affordable Sailboats" looks spot on for what I think I'm looking for. Looks like a person can get all 3 used for about $10/each - that's my kind of book(s).

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Richard:

If Tampa is where you want to be, then, given your desiderata for a boat, I would think the first thing you have to do is find a slip for such a boat....

If your ACQUISITION budget has a ceiling of $40K, I assume that you have ANOTHER $40K just burning a hole in your pocket waiting to bring the boat up to snuff, and that you realize that for a 37-footer each and every month you own it, you should put a MINIMUM of fifteenhunnert bux into a dedicated bank account just to pay for the OWNERSHIP expenses.

ect. ect.

When I was researching the Tampa area it seemed like slips are available. I looked because I have certainly seen places that this is not the case or the prices are nuts.

I guess I should have qualified the budget a little better... $40K assumes a boat that doesn't need a whole lot, maybe $5-10k in the first season. The $20k boat would need a little more work, bringing the total closer to $40k. I assumed not quite $1,500/month, the slip will be ~$500, obviously fuel, other consumables, some early stage upgrades or refits, and of course the ever present lessons I still have to learn.

I'll take a look at the books, but I'm maybe not as far behind as the average newbie sailor. The first sailing book I read was called the "physics of sailing explained", equations and all I thought it read like a novel, I loved it! I should take the time to solve some more of the specific the equations, but a lot of the physics/dynamics concepts have been somewhat second nature. Just promise not to bring up Navier-Stokes, those guys suck, and we should be okay!

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

Might look at endeavor 32s. Not a full keel, but a long fin and, I think, a skeg hung rudder. I spent some time on one and it was a pretty decent ride and certainly roomy enough for one. Also, often in your price range.

I'll add it to the list, Thanks!

[TrentePieds]

I'll leave Navier-Stokes to the Alan Turing fans :-)!

Sails have finite lives, even if somewhat indeterminate. So does standing and running rigging. So does the "iron wind". The fifteenhunnertamonth needs to be treated as a "sinking fund" (ironic, wot?) so that when some disaster strikes - as it will - the bux are sitting there just waiting to be spent on remediation. After some years of ownership, say five or ten, you will find that every penny has been spent on ownership and maintenance expenses.

Since you are not mathematically naive, you will understand the reason that if you go from a 36-footer to a 45-footer there would be wisdom in feeding the sinking fund not a grand-and-a-half a month, but three grand.

In a somewhat different department: I see you would like to have a shower below decks. Why on earth? PARTICULARLY where the sea water is lukewarm year round! There is no reason to drag ANY kind of water below decks except for cooking purposes. Just makes for more housekeeping! And there is NO reason related to cleanliness or wholesomeness to do so.

One of the things you MIGHT want to test out in your candidate boats are the toilet facilities. You will find that in a great many there isn't room in the "toilet room" for a grown man to "do the paper work" without intruding on the adjoining "public" space. PITA!

Remember when you select a boat to be a "live aboard", you will spend 90% of your time either alongside or with your hook down, so make sure you do not sacrifice livability for some claimed sailing advantage that is more illusion or advertising guff than reality.

Being on passage is, as someone said in a different context, "long periods of excruciating boredom interspersed with moments of acute terror". So best to make your passages quick by having a boat that is fast, weatherly and comfortable. Some of the desiderata you have enunciated seem to militate against that :-)

Cheers!

TP

[Renegde_Sailor]

If you can find one a Spencer 35 is one hell of a good boat, I have a Spencer 42 and absolutely love it.



The 35's can be had for around 10-20 grand in many cases.

[Snore]

Greetings,

A few random thoughts from someone who lives in St Petersburg and has experience locally and elsewhere as a delivery Capt.

A 30-35' boat in the price point of $30-$40 will either need some work or be a lower grade of manufacture. As always define the role of the boat. Your intent to "sail Tampa Bay and the Caribbean" sounds good, but unless you can take a few weeks off is not a likely scenario for a working engineer.

Living in Tampa there are few dock options for a sailboat of that size. It would be prudent to determine WHERE the boat will be kept before you get into it. Driving an hour to the boat is not for everyone.

DO NOT get a boat without air conditioning; or budget to put it in ASAP. Summers along Tampa Bay are "hotter than Lucifer's attic". Having AC will let you go down to your boat, and work on it in comfort.

Budget $3-6K for new sails. Most boats at that price point will have worn sails. Yes the may be functional-- But one of the keys to learning how to sail is mastering sail shape. That can only be done if the sails aren't blown out.

My suggestion for manufacturers- a general standard on the older boats is - boats with NO mica and 100% hardwoods, real hardwood veneers generally are a better build quality.

There is an interesting Caliber 33 in NC that might be worth a look and a C&C 36 in St Augustine- but she may have been raced, so a THOROUGH survey would be prudent.

Feel free to PM

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by Snore

Greetings,

A few random thoughts from someone who lives in St Petersburg and has experience locally and elsewhere as a delivery Capt.

A 30-35' boat in the price point of $30-$40 will either need some work or be a lower grade of manufacture. As always define the role of the boat. Your intent to "sail Tampa Bay and the Caribbean" sounds good, but unless you can take a few weeks off is not a likely scenario for a working engineer.

Living in Tampa there are few dock options for a sailboat of that size. It would be prudent to determine WHERE the boat will be kept before you get into it. Driving an hour to the boat is not for everyone.

DO NOT get a boat without air conditioning; or budget to put it in ASAP. Summers along Tampa Bay are "hotter than Lucifer's attic". Having AC will let you go down to your boat, and work on it in comfort.

Budget $3-6K for new sails. Most boats at that price point will have worn sails. Yes the may be functional-- But one of the keys to learning how to sail is mastering sail shape. That can only be done if the sails aren't blown out.

My suggestion for manufacturers- a general standard on the older boats is - boats with NO mica and 100% hardwoods, real hardwood veneers generally are a better build quality.

There is an interesting Caliber 33 in NC that might be worth a look and a C&C 36 in St Augustine- but she may have been raced, so a THOROUGH survey would be prudent.

Feel free to PM

Thank you!!!

I'm fully expecting to have to do a lot of work on whatever I buy. I actually liked working on my last boat, almost too much. The Caribbean trip is a couple of years out and likely involves a couple month hiatus, but I figured it was at least slightly more realistic if I'm starting in Florida.

I was thinking the St. Pete municipal marina? It's at least on the top of my list to check out. I'm accustomed to driving an hour or more just to get to the boat ramp where I set my boat up and then launch it, into a lake, so no issues with the drive from that perspective. It would be a pain for working on it though, so that's more of a consideration than anything.

Had not thought of A/C for purposes of working on the boat, great point!

In my mind there is a budget for a new sail or two, but convincing myself to pull that trigger...

Mica vs hardwood --> That's like teaching a man to fish, love it!

I'll check out those boats, although I'm still squarely in the research phase. I have started to notice the C&C's lately, I'm starting to get the impression they're higher quality build? Or at the very least a more sought older boats.

Thanks again!

[Shanachie]

Sailing in western Florida, the single most important number is the draft of the boat.


You want 5 feet max, 4 or 4.5 feet better. Any more and you will be unable to visit many great spots, including large swaths of the Keys.


Some people will tell you that you can do it with 5.5 or even 6 feet, but they do that by sticking to major ports. And keeping their TowboatUS insurance up to date ...


I'll disagree with the hardwood observation by noting that I've owned a couple of boats with lots of teak. After the second one, I vowed to never own another, no matter how well it sailed.


You will sand and varnish until there are tears in your eyes, and then you will have more tears when the varnish starts deteriorating a couple of months later.


Catalina makes many relatively fast and seaworthy boats with minimal wood trim. As a bonus, it designs its boats so they are easy to work on.



They are reasonably priced for their age and condition, and there are many from 27 feet on up cruising the Keys, the Bahamas and the Caribbean. Give them a look.


The larger C&Cs, while great sailing boats, have balsa core in their hulls. That's a problem when boats reach 35 or 40 years old. One leak at a through hull and you have a massive repair project.


C&C also paid less attention to issues such as access for repairs. It's damn near impossible to work on the diesel or even change the shaft packing on the Landfall 38, for example.

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Sailing in western Florida, the single most important number is the draft of the boat.


You want 5 feet max, 4 or 4.5 feet better. Any more and you will be unable to visit many great spots, including large swaths of the Keys.


Some people will tell you that you can do it with 5.5 or even 6 feet, but they do that by sticking to major ports. And keeping their TowboatUS insurance up to date ...


I'll disagree with the hardwood observation by noting that I've owned a couple of boats with lots of teak. After the second one, I vowed to never own another, no matter how well it sailed.


You will sand and varnish until there are tears in your eyes, and then you will have more tears when the varnish starts deteriorating a couple of months later.


Catalina makes many relatively fast and seaworthy boats with minimal wood trim. As a bonus, it designs its boats so they are easy to work on.



They are reasonably priced for their age and condition, and there are many from 27 feet on up cruising the Keys, the Bahamas and the Caribbean. Give them a look.


The larger C&Cs, while great sailing boats, have balsa core in their hulls. That's a problem when boats reach 35 or 40 years old. One leak at a through hull and you have a massive repair project.


C&C also paid less attention to issues such as access for repairs. It's damn near impossible to work on the diesel or even change the shaft packing on the Landfall 38, for example.

I guess I took the hardwood recommendation in a little different manor. Since I want a 35ft boat for $30k, it's likely to be more than a little disheveled. The hardwood vs a laminate can be a good leading indicator as to the original build quality. If the boat's got good bones, at least I have a fighting chance. Not that I should buy a boatload of teak. People, yourself included, telling me about that nightmare will hopefully be enough to keep me away from that - inset fingers crossed emoji...

I'm on board with the Catalina's. They have the production numbers and brand recognition that will be important for resale. I'll certainly be delving into their catalog. And even if I don't ultimately buy one, they seem like a good benchmark.

I will say, I'm disappointed you don't like the C&C's. After reading about the company (pre-'83) and looking at the boat he mentioned I thought he hit the nail on the head, including the big red flag on that particular boat. Also, it looks like they built a version of that boat with a shallow keel/centerboard combination, which as you mentioned would be perfect for the area.

If I happen to continue down the C&C path I'll be sure to look at the hull structure closely. Also, I'll be conscience of the potentially difficult repairs that might need to be done in the near future. As both a mechanic and engineer I have a odd perspective. As long as I think the engineer knew it was going to suck to fix when it was designed I'm okay with it. It was done that way because it helped so much in other ways, cost, quality, performance, ect. Not that that makes it easier to fix or service, but I'm not angry when I'm doing it, which makes a huge difference.

Thanks for all the advice! And reinforcing the draft consideration, I was likely spoiled by the 15-18" draft on my Mac.

[Shanachie]

I speak from experience. I used to own a C&C 25 many years ago. (See the C&C Photo Album for much more info about them.)


C&Cs were primarily racing boats, not cruisers. The build quality was excellent, but most are getting very long in the tooth and were raced hard and put away wet, as they say.




C&Cs had some quirks as they sought a racing advantage. The balsa-cored hulls on larger boats. Rod rigging on some of their hard-core racing models. Storage wasn't particularly great. Sleeping arrangements were not luxurious.


I've never heard of their keel bolts failing, but C&Cs have attached keels that are now 40 years old. There's a thing called a C&C smile for when the bolts start loosening a bit.


I'm not saying don't buy one. Just go in with eyes open. And pay someone a lot of money to sound the hull and deck carefully for delamination and rotten balsa.


Also, with racing boats, speed was more important to the designer than comfort. So you wouldn't be getting the smoother ride of some other, heavier sailboats.

[CarlF]

There are many boats in the 27-30 range that would fit your budget. These generally have 4ft drafts. Easy to single hand but perfectly comfortable for two on week long trips. Of your criteria the toughest may be a shower if you want the shower to not be in the head.

I would look at Island Packets (roomy for their length), Cape Dory (prettiest girl at the dance and great motion at sea), Tartan 28/30, Sabre 28/30, Pearson 30/303 and , of course, Catalina.

All of these would be a big step up over your Magregor in seaworthiness. Could easily go to the Bahamas. Most have crossed the Atlantic.

With care you should be able to get it bought and fixed up for $40k.

[CarlF]

There are many boats in the 27-30 range that would fit your budget. These generally have 4ft drafts. Easy to single hand but perfectly comfortable for two on week long trips. Of your criteria the toughest may be a shower if you want the shower to not be in the head.

I would look at Island Packets (roomy for their length), Cape Dory (prettiest girl at the dance), Tartan 28/30, Sabre 28/30, Pearson 30/303 and , of course, Catalina.

All of these would be a big step up over your Magregor in seaworthiness. Could easily go to the Bahamas. Most have crossed the Atlantic.

With care you should be able to get it bought and fixed up for $40k.

Here’s a lovely Cape Dory 27 that would be a joy to sail for less than $20k https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/197...-cd27-8619769/

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I speak from experience. I used to own a C&C 25 many years ago. (See the C&C Photo Album for much more info about them.)


C&Cs were primarily racing boats, not cruisers. The build quality was excellent, but most are getting very long in the tooth and were raced hard and put away wet, as they say.




C&Cs had some quirks as they sought a racing advantage. The balsa-cored hulls on larger boats. Rod rigging on some of their hard-core racing models. Storage wasn't particularly great. Sleeping arrangements were not luxurious.


I've never heard of their keel bolts failing, but C&Cs have attached keels that are now 40 years old. There's a thing called a C&C smile for when the bolts start loosening a bit.


I'm not saying don't buy one. Just go in with eyes open. And pay someone a lot of money to sound the hull and deck carefully for delamination and rotten balsa.


Also, with racing boats, speed was more important to the designer than comfort. So you wouldn't be getting the smoother ride of some other, heavier sailboats.

I did notice the racing heritage in the little bit I read about the company. And you're right that I'm not after a racing boat, I would like to lean a little more to the cruising side of the spectrum.

I watched a couple Youtube videos of people tapping on boat hulls... riveting! Then because I was surprised at the lack a special tool I read a Cruisers thread, nope nothing but experience and a hammer. It would be interesting to use a sonic imager while someone was doing that, it just would be really hard to cost justify.

Thanks for taking the time and the advice!

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by CarlF

There are many boats in the 27-30 range that would fit your budget. These generally have 4ft drafts. Easy to single hand but perfectly comfortable for two on week long trips. Of your criteria the toughest may be a shower if you want the shower to not be in the head.

I would look at Island Packets (roomy for their length), Cape Dory (prettiest girl at the dance), Tartan 28/30, Sabre 28/30, Pearson 30/303 and , of course, Catalina.

All of these would be a big step up over your Magregor in seaworthiness. Could easily go to the Bahamas. Most have crossed the Atlantic.

With care you should be able to get it bought and fixed up for $40k.

Here’s a lovely Cape Dory 27 that would be a joy to sail for less than $20k https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/197...-cd27-8619769/

Oh, I fully expect the shower to be in the head. I just don't know if it's relatively standard on non-trailerable boats. Also, I thought the inclusion of a shower would make the head a more useable size. As another poster mentioned, they tend to be a bit small.

Thank you for the boat recommendations, I have a question though. Since they're all a little smaller than what I think I want. Is it the single hand, the money, the lack of experience, or something else that you're concerned about? Don't get me wrong, I think those could all be legitimate concerns. I honestly just what to know which one stands out more than the others, that way I can be better informed and hopefully make better choices.

In the end I felt like I really out grew the Macgregor and 2-3 more feet wasn't going to make a lot of difference. I had no trouble handling it around the docks (or the trailer), but that is actually my biggest concern with a physically larger and significantly more massive boat. I will say my aspirations are a little bigger, eventually crossing oceans, so I feel like I want to be closer to a boat of that size. I understand that people do it on rather small boats, but I'm not going to be one of those guys.

Thanks again!

[SY Harmony]

iMHO, Beam makes more difference in livability than length. A 10’ beam at 30-35’ length is palatial for a solo sailor and comfortable for a couple who are happy being around each other.

My Endeavour 32 actually has a smaller cabin than my Hunter 30 did. But now I have a larger more useable cockpit, more lazaretto and easier access to my engine. They are all compromise. The best thing to do is go look at a lot of them.