Help pick my next boat - Advice for a newish sailor

[KingRichard]

Hi All,

I’m looking for some opinions about what to research/purchase for my next boat. After perusing the forum for a while, I think I can find some opinions here 😊. Below is a little about me and details of what I think I want, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if this has been discussed ad infinitum. My cursory searches just haven’t returned the results I was looking for, but links to old threads are more than welcome.

Me: 41-year-old degreed mechanical engineer who used to be a mechanic on his way to Tampa, Fl. Likely to be single handing, at least for now, ladies 😉. Very hands-on and really enjoy working on DIY boat projects. Average size and quite fit, so no need for uniquely sized accommodations.

Experience: I grew up on the Missouri River in ~16/17’ fishing boats, learned stuff happens on a boat at an early age. Then… A few years back, I bought the final version of the classic Macgregor’s the 26s, I put the mast up and hosted the sails; guns up let’s do this style, I survived! Over the years, I made a couple dozen overnight trips, some stuff went wrong, some stuff was epic, and a few projects got completed. Oddly enough, I never had anyone on the boat that knew how to sail before they were on my boat and I’ve never sailed on anyone else’s boat #selftaught. However, I have read a couple books (I like those) and watched some Youtubers (meh). As far as the Macgregor goes, that boat did exactly what I wanted it to do. 8 different lakes in 4 states, including some of the largest non-great lakes in the U.S. (Tahoe, Sacajawea, and Oahe). I sold it a couple weeks ago for exactly what I paid for it.

Looking for: I think my next boat should/needs to be another stepping stone before the possibility of a bigger live aboard bluewater. For that reason and budget constraints, I think I’m going to be in the 33-37ft range and $20-40k based on condition/refit needs.

- Full or modified full keel - The Mac26 was tippy, I didn’t like that, so I tend to want to overcorrect toward a heavier boat with a full or, more likely, modified full keel. Also, I’m under the impression that a heavier fullish keel boat will prepare me for more difficult handling characteristics and the sailing dynamics of a bigger boat and it’s also more likely to have a skeg hung rudder.
- Respectable manufacturing - Something I think is important is a boat and a company with decent production numbers and at least a reasonable reputation. I don’t intend to keep it more than a few years and a good support network is/was nice to have.
- Single handable – A number of things are part of this, you know what they are and a lot can be adapted, so I won’t belabor this point.
- Draft < 5ft – This comes largely from reading the forum about sailing around Tampa, Fl and in the Caribbean.
- Less berths, only one head, but w/shower – Understanding layouts change, but in general one large birth and a bigger salon.
- Performance – A reasonable level of upwind and some level of light wind performance, as I mentioned the Mac26, I’m accustomed to not having to use the engine except to dock or trailer the boat. I want to sail.
- Monohull – I don’t think I’m a cat guy and doubt they’re in my budget, but am admittedly ignorant, so if the argument makes sense I’ll listen.
- Nice to haves - A cutter rig, sugar scoop, a centerboard (I liked the dynamics and draft – is this popular enough design with a fullish keel? If so, I like that idea)
- Not Into – Double enders (anyone remember Mr. Yuk stickers?), ketch rigs (in a boat of this size), and designs/models that might have been built in any number of places by randos.

Thank you for reading, any advice you may have, and please 2nd, 3rd, 4th ect. the boat recommendations that you agree with. Hopefully I can come up with somewhat of a smallish consensus of boats to perform in depth research on and be on the lookout for. At this point I think I’m at least a couple if not 6 months from a purchase. Safe Travels!

[Reeve21]

If you can stretch the budget a bit the Freedom 35 checks a lot of your boxes. Having just replaced standing rigging on my current boat, I miss the freestanding rig.

Huge aft berth, walk through transom, stall shower, well built (beautiful cherry interior), sails better than you might expect. Most east coast versions have a 4.5 foot draft/wing keel. Get a good survey, the hull is cored and can be vulnerable to moisture intrusion. Easily single-handed once you get used to a very large mainsail for the size of the boat.

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by Reeve21

If you can stretch the budget a bit the Freedom 35 checks a lot of your boxes. Having just replaced standing rigging on my current boat, I miss the freestanding rig.

Yes it does, this is on the list. Thank you - I hadn't considered a freestanding rig, as I didn't really know it was a thing, but after tripping between a pop top and the side stays for years it sounds very appealing.

[Tedd]

I started out much as you did and have decided to stay with trailer yachting. Unfortunately, unlike some other countries, there's not much available in the U.S. that's better than a classic Macgregor but still realistically trailerable.

Your 40k limit would enable you to buy a Seaward 26RK, just. You should take a serious look at that boat. It's a very well built and, by all accounts, excellent-sailing yacht that you can still trailer. You'd probably want a pickup or a decent-sized SUV to tow it because it's significantly heavier than a Macgregor. But it's also a ton more boat.

You've probably already thought of this but the next step up from a Macgregor in a trailer yacht is the Hunter 26/260. You can get a nice 26 in the 20k range and a nice 260 in the 30k range. They have standing headroom (for an average-sized guy) and a proper head and galley, which the Macgregor lacks, but are still affordable and easy to trailer.

You might also consider an Odin 820. If you're like me, "powersailers" probably aren't your thing, but the Odin 820 (older version of what's now called an Imexus 28) looks to be a very well built boat with tons of space and cruisability while still being eminently trailerable. I like that they took trailerability seriously as a design requirement, not just an afterthought.

There are a smattering of other trailer yachts on the market in the U.S., but few if any of them would be a step up from your Macgregor.

A bit further afield, there are several TES 678s in Canada now, and once in a while one comes on the market. That is a really great trailer yacht with build quality on par with Seaward and a modern design. One sold near me last year for $38k Canadian, which is only USD 29k. But that's probably too far for you to go for a boat.

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by Tedd

I started out much as you did and have decided to stay with trailer yachting. Unfortunately, unlike some other countries, there's not much available in the U.S. that's better than a classic Macgregor but still realistically trailerable.

I would tend to agree in that I didn't ever seem to run across anything that was really any better than my old Macgregor at what it was designed to do; that always surprised me a little bit.

With that said, if I was going to keep trailering I wouldn't have had any reason to sell it. Putting up the mast, setting everything else up, and launching it got to be such a hassle. I was half wiped out by the time it came to sailing and always knew what waited at the dock. Although I do feel like it was a great place to start and a good boat to start with.

[Tedd]

Originally Posted by KingRichard

Putting up the mast, setting everything else up, and launching it got to be such a hassle.

It doesn't have to be that way, though. I had my Macgregor set up so that I could raise the mast on the water. I launched like a powerboat, within minutes of reaching the boat launch, raised the rigging while motoring out (wife at the helm), and was sailing by the time I reached sailable waters. No time wasted and only about ten minutes of rigging time (while motoring).

My new boat is much more complex, though. It has a dodger, a bimini, and lazy jacks. All that stuff make cruising nicer but add to the set up time. I can rig it on the water but, for the time being, I've settled on rigging it on land because there's a lot of moving around on deck and that's easier and safer to do while the boat's on the trailer. Once I have the pattern down I might go back to rigging on the water, though.

[JPA Cate]

You could start looking around at trailer sailers, which will take care of berthing fees, and flexibility.

If you're ready for a keel boat, Catalinas, 27 - 30 ft. are not a bad intermediate boat. My Jim had a Yankee 30 (a S & S designed boat) when I met him. We cruised it out of SF Bay, and eventually took it to HI and back. Then, Jim bought a somewhat larger boat (36') for our first international cruise. A weakness of the Y 30 was that it would oil can a bit when beating into 25 kn. Jim fixed his before it broke, via instructions from Yankee. I'd imagine that careful examination of the hull would reveal to an engineer's eye whether it had been repaired well.

Have fun with your search. You never know when life might take a dump on you, and it's a plus to have remembered pleasures.

Ann

[SY Harmony]

@kingrichard
Are you looking for more of a day sailer - weekender or week long trips single handed?

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by SY Harmony

@kingrichard
Are you looking for more of a day sailer - weekender or week long trips single handed?

Good question, longer trips - Lots of weekends and as many weeks as I can figure out how to get off work.

[SY Harmony]

Originally Posted by KingRichard

Good question, longer trips - Lots of weekends and as many weeks as I can figure out how to get off work.

Look into Bahamas cruising permits costs. That weighed in my decision to stay under 35’

Let me toss the Hunter 33 (82ish) into the mix.

Edit:
Tippy isn’t always a function of keel design. Beam, rig, and ballast play into how quick she is to heal. And healing over is good.

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by SY Harmony

Look into Bahamas cruising permits costs. That weighed in my decision to stay under 35’

Let me toss the Hunter 33 (82ish) into the mix.

Edit:
Tippy isn’t always a function of keel design. Beam, rig, and ballast play into how quick she is to heal. And healing over is good.

Interesting about permitting costs specific to a boat size, hadn't considered that, especially since the Bahama's is an obvious early trip from Florida. Thanks

I'll certainly take a look at early 80's Hunter 33s

I think the tippy was due to a number of factors, but water being the only ballast and really very little keel area or even no keel, if it wasn't down made for a boat that rocked side to side quite easily.

[gallatin1988]

Check out:
20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
20 Affordable Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
Sensible Cruising the Thoreau Approach
atomvoyages.com

That's 3 books and a website that should give you lots to think about

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Check out:
20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
20 Affordable Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
Sensible Cruising the Thoreau Approach
atomvoyages.com

That's 3 books and a website that should give you lots to think about

Thanks I'll certainly take an in depth look at these in the next few days, but right off the bat "20 Affordable Sailboats" looks spot on for what I think I'm looking for. Looks like a person can get all 3 used for about $10/each - that's my kind of book(s).

[TrentePieds]

Richard:

If Tampa is where you want to be, then, given your desiderata for a boat, I would think the first thing you have to do is find a slip for such a boat, and “lock it in” by laying down whatever cash the marina/slip owner demands. THEN you can begin to look for a boat! You can have a McG26 without having a slip, but you can't have a REAL boat :-)

Dunno about Tampa, but here, diagonally opposite in Vancouver B.C.,the waiting list for marina slips is about five years! And that's in a COLD climate!

If your ACQUISITION budget has a ceiling of $40K, I assume that you have ANOTHER $40K just burning a hole in your pocket waiting to bring the boat up to snuff, and that you realize that for a 37-footer each and every month you own it, you should put a MINIMUM of fifteenhunnert bux into a dedicated bank account just to pay for the OWNERSHIP expenses.

Now, “frozen snot” boats are commodities, really. There are differences in layout and in the fundamental “numbers”, but when it comes to numbers the long and the short of it is that modern factory-built boats all cleave to design conventions that evolved fifty years ago when every Tom, Dick and Harry had to be racing sailors. The conventions evolved out of attempts to beat the "measuring rules" for sailboats in order to compensate for the fact that the boats were not "one design" boats. In consequence, while many such boats may make adequate cruising boats, some make quite POOR cruising boats, let alone live-aboard boats.

Looking through your post, I conclude that the best thing I can do for you is refer you to two books: The Proper Yacht by Arthur Beiser and Skeene's Elements of Yacht Design by old Francis Kinney. The former gives you an excellent discourse by an accomplished cruising man on what a “proper (cruising) yacht” IS, and the latter, once you've internalized the technical stuff in it, permits you to understand the meaning of the various numbers you see bruited about, including the CRUCIAL one for a cruising man, the Sail Area/Displacement ratio.

Interspersed with the basic discourse in Beiser's book are technical descriptions right from a 27-footer of Scowegian design to Beiser's own glorious, globe-girdling, Alden-designed 58-foot Minot's Light.

When you've got all that stuff under your belt, we'll be talking the same language, more or less, and we can then begin to discuss your stated desiderata one by one, one after the other.

All the best!

TrentePieds

[KingRichard]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Richard:

If Tampa is where you want to be, then, given your desiderata for a boat, I would think the first thing you have to do is find a slip for such a boat....

If your ACQUISITION budget has a ceiling of $40K, I assume that you have ANOTHER $40K just burning a hole in your pocket waiting to bring the boat up to snuff, and that you realize that for a 37-footer each and every month you own it, you should put a MINIMUM of fifteenhunnert bux into a dedicated bank account just to pay for the OWNERSHIP expenses.

ect. ect.

When I was researching the Tampa area it seemed like slips are available. I looked because I have certainly seen places that this is not the case or the prices are nuts.

I guess I should have qualified the budget a little better... $40K assumes a boat that doesn't need a whole lot, maybe $5-10k in the first season. The $20k boat would need a little more work, bringing the total closer to $40k. I assumed not quite $1,500/month, the slip will be ~$500, obviously fuel, other consumables, some early stage upgrades or refits, and of course the ever present lessons I still have to learn.

I'll take a look at the books, but I'm maybe not as far behind as the average newbie sailor. The first sailing book I read was called the "physics of sailing explained", equations and all I thought it read like a novel, I loved it! I should take the time to solve some more of the specific the equations, but a lot of the physics/dynamics concepts have been somewhat second nature. Just promise not to bring up Navier-Stokes, those guys suck, and we should be okay!