Cruising with a big rig

[jt11791]

How many of you cruise boats with large (SA/D >20) sail plans? Where do you go (or not go) and how is it working for you?

My current 38' boat has an SA/D of 20 and I'm very comfortable with it. However, I only cruise it locally (NE USA) and I am careful to avoid weather as much as possible.

I ask because I'm looking to buy a bigger cruising boat for extended coastal cruising with my wife (also a sailor) and perhaps longer crossings in the future. I've looked at many off shore cruisers and found they usually have an SA/D around 18, which seems small to me. My experience has been that there are more light air days than heavy and when the wind is up, I can always reduce sail. I did find one "high performance cruiser" that I like with an SA/D of 25. Am I crazy to consider this?

[StuM]

You can always reef and/or put up a smaller headsail in heavy weather.
It's harder to increase sail area in light conditions.


(As an aside, I've got a SA/D of 26.97, but that's spread over two hulls )

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jt11791

How many of you cruise boats with large (SA/D >20) sail plans? Where do you go (or not go) and how is it working for you?

My current 38' boat has an SA/D of 20 and I'm very comfortable with it. However, I only cruise it locally (NE USA) and I am careful to avoid weather as much as possible.

I ask because I'm looking to buy a bigger cruising boat for extended coastal cruising with my wife (also a sailor) and perhaps longer crossings in the future. I've looked at many off shore cruisers and found they usually have an SA/D around 18, which seems small to me. My experience has been that there are more light air days than heavy and when the wind is up, I can always reduce sail. I did find one "high performance cruiser" that I like with an SA/D of 25. Am I crazy to consider this?

Actually, the numbers you're quoting, 20 minimum & 25+ ideally, are the exact ones I'm always suggesting, for the reasons you're mentioning. It lets you make good speed under sail until the wind drops to virtually nil.
Though to achieve & use those numbers, you have to have enough keel & rudder to control them, & a tall rig. Plus, on a lot of boats it means adding bigger sails than most cruisers carry, such as a (true/racing) Code 0 on a short (or longer) sprit.

My thinking, if you can't put up enough sail to get an SADR of about 20 minimum, you'll either be painfully slow in light air, or be motoring. And I abhor the latter.
Note thoough that when calculating these numbers, I include the area from jib/headsail overlap, & mainsail roach.

To give you some idea of my personal boats, one was a Ranger 33', with the tall rig, so SADR was about 20 with a #2. And another was a 2-tonner. She weighed in at about 19,000lbs empty, & had a 58' stick. Her SADR was 25'ish with a #1, more with a few specialty sails. And both gave up no comforts in terms of interiors or carrying capacity. Nor were they hard to handle, even for most still fairly new to saiing.
My 31' Searunner sailed well too, with a Bruce number of 1.3 or so, AKA "the minimum". But she couldn't carry much load, relatively speaking. Still, nice boat for her era.

Statistically speaking, a huge percentage of cruising, & ocean racing takes place in winds of under 10kts. And with a bit of tinkering, it's not too tough to set up a boat to sail decently in these conditions, provided she's not the heaviest girl at the dance.
This idea is something espoused by a lot of "professional" cruisers, most of who's names we all know. And many of whom are members here. Much to our benefit, thanks.


I love to sail, & prefer to be out there, period. But enjoy the experience a LOT more on boats which sail well. Be it my old 31' Searunner, or a BIG Swan.

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EDIT: I goofed on the description of my 2-tonner. The quoted weight was with full tanks, cruising gear, & a couple of months of supplies & stores onboard for 2 people.

Also, to me a "normal" sized rig is one that's about 133% of a boat' LOA tall. And setup with a (true/racing) Code 0 on a furler, a #2 as the primary headsail (on a regular furler), & a 75% Solent on a detachable Solent stay, or a staysail (possibly on a furler, it makes "big" rigs fairly easy to handle. You can also add spinnakers easily enough if you like. Or run (deep) with the Code 0 on one side & the genoa on the other. Along with being able to hank anything you like onto the Solent stay, from a light air drifter, to a blast reacher, or heavy air canvas. And add free flying staysails any time, & in any configuration you like. Usually on their own, dedicated furling gear http://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=537.

One which gets some use is a Windseeker, for when it's really, really light. And the other is a tall boy staysail, for use with a kite or the Code 0 when reaching or running. The extra 1 - 1 1/2kts it gives can be a welcome boost. And with furling gear, handling it's a no brainer. Though both are something of a luxury to have, & do require a bit more work on the part of the crew.

As, for reefing, I prefer 3 reefs, using a 2-line system. Generally with things led back to the cockpit, so that the on watch crewman can tuck in or shake out a reef in but a moment or two, without going forward. As unless I've expert crew onboard, I prefer there to be 2 people on deck if someone's going forward to do sail changes & the like. Which, the furler & inner forestay setup(s) described above helps with this too.

[u4ea32]

I agree.

Cruising areas have better weather and less wind than global averages. West coast Mexico, the med, summertime New England, South Pacific, are all light air regions.

Too many cruising sailboats are set up as if the norm is a Fastnet gale. If you don't have enough light air performance, you will end up powering all over.

The key is light air performance, not strictly SA/D as such simplifications ignore wetted surface (a huge contributor to light air performance) and the ability to safely and easily utilize bigger light air sails used in the typical cruising wind angles.

So the important information is not generally available: actual displacement in cruising trim, wetted surface, rig layout, helm balance, autopilot effectiveness, etc.

Personally, I prefer very high performance boats. It's not the speed per se, as an airliner beats any sailboat. It's simply that sailing a responsive boat is fun, and sailing a slug is dull.

[Snowpetrel]

Yeah, I am with Uncivilised and U4, and I like a decent sized rig on a cruising boat, ideally somewhere near 20 sa/disp, and a slippery hull rather than something sticky (high wetted surface) ideally I want a reef in at around 15 knots. Else the boat is likely undercanvased in 10 knots, and that's somewhere near the average windspeed offshore, seems as least as often I have been looking for wind rather than the other way around.

Even in the 40's and 50's a decent sailplan helps keep the boat moving as the wind goes light and steadies the boat up in the left over slop and swell.

Another advantage of a decent sized rig is being able to sail well with a non overlapping jib as your working sail. Much easier to handle, and some sort of cruising code zero fills in on the really light wind days.

Many of the modern wide sterned cruising boats need the higher sa/disp as they have a fair bit of wetted surface. Also make sure you are comparing like with like. I usually use just 100% foretriangle in calcs, and real displacement figures can be hard to find.

[basssears]

Don't discount pointing ability too (often goes hand in hand with a more "performance" oriented sail plan / boat)... 5 degrees closer to pointing your destination makes for a MUCH shorter trip.

-- Bass

(Say the guy with the pilothouse )

[TrentePieds]

The number in and of itself has no magic in it. You want as much area as you can possibly cram onto the boat so you can move her in light airs. BUT - big, big "but" - you MUST then have GOOD reefing gear so you can easily and safely reduce area as the wind comes up.

Remembering that the force of the wind increases exponentially with the increase in its velocity, you calculate how much RESIDUAL area you want AFTER reefing and place your reef-points accordingly.

TP

[jt11791]

Thanks for the input, all of you. You are speaking my language with pointing ability, wetted surface, etc. and overall sailing performance being priorities in choosing a cruising boat. I just can't see myself enjoying an Oyster 53, no matter how nice it is below, when the SA/D is 16 (rounding up).

** Let's be careful with the numbers. For sail area I'm using 100% foretriangle plus mainsail (no roach) i.e. I * J/2 + P * E/2.

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Originally Posted by jt11791

Thanks for the input, all of you. You are speaking my language with pointing ability, wetted surface, etc. and overall sailing performance being priorities in choosing a cruising boat. I just can't see myself enjoying an Oyster 53, no matter how nice it is below, when the SA/D is 16 (rounding up).

** Let's be careful with the numbers. For sail area I'm using 100% foretriangle plus mainsail (no roach) i.e. I * J/2 + P * E/2.

Numbers don't tell the full story. For example many of the Dashew's boats have SADR's in the ranges which you mention, yet they sail amazingly well. If Oysters really interest you, talk to some owners, & see about going for a sail on one. I believe that that's what Kenomac has, & they move around a lot, visiting various places. So it's worth a query.

EDIT: I just checked, & they have an Oyster 53'. Also, check the boat's (racing) PHRF rating, & get a hold of it's Polars (polar projections). They show you how fast the boat is on any given point of sail, in any given wind speed.

[jt11791]

I should not have called out the Oyster 53 alone, as most of the boats on our short list have similar rigs, for examples:

Morris 51 -> 16.7
Outbound 46 -> 18.8
Jeanneau 50DS -> 16.7
Oyster 53 -> 15.7

A fair point made earlier in the thread is the difficulty in obtaining accurate, as-cruised, displacement values. So the above numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. I'm also not trying to boil any boat's sailing performance down to one number. Here, I focused on SA/D as a value I'm well familiar with over a wide range of sailing abilities in hope of extrapolating what I know best (in shore sailing in boats 30'-38') to what I don't know well (off shore sailing boats 50'+). I started the thread as a reality check and it's been helpful. Most of the cruisers I look at are in the 16-18 range and I need some confidence that I'm not going off the deep end when considering cruising a boat at SA/D of 25.

I will try to get out sailing on as many of these as possible.

[Hoodsail]

Ran the "numbers" on my Bristol 35.5 cb; displacement 15,000 # divided by 64 (weight of salt water/cu ft) = 234 (displacement cu ft). Take 234 to the 0.667 power = 38...Divide my sail area, approx. 600 sq ft by 38 = 15.7...so she should be a slug! But out this past wkend in 8-10knots of wind, Long Island sound was very flat, with just the 130% genoa (no main), doing 4-6 knots...with a max hull speed of 7knots on a LWL of 27.5ft..
Admittedly in 5 knots of wind, its time to fire up the westerbeke, but I haven't flown the Gennaker yet, so who knows...of course that would require new SA/D calculations.
dave

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jt11791

I should not have called out the Oyster 53 alone, as most of the boats on our short list have similar rigs, for examples:

Morris 51 -> 16.7
Outbound 46 -> 18.8
Jeanneau 50DS -> 16.7
Oyster 53 -> 15.7

A fair point made earlier in the thread is the difficulty in obtaining accurate, as-cruised, displacement values. So the above numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. I'm also not trying to boil any boat's sailing performance down to one number. Here, I focused on SA/D as a value I'm well familiar with over a wide range of sailing abilities in hope of extrapolating what I know best (in shore sailing in boats 30'-38') to what I don't know well (off shore sailing boats 50'+). I started the thread as a reality check and it's been helpful. Most of the cruisers I look at are in the 16-18 range and I need some confidence that I'm not going off the deep end when considering cruising a boat at SA/D of 25.

I will try to get out sailing on as many of these as possible.

It shouldn't be tough to get copies of the Polars for the boats you're mentioning, as a perspective buyer. Particularly if the seller or manufacturer knows that you want to know that their boat sais well, so that it stays on your short list of candidates.

Here's one source of PHRF ratings, & US Sailing (or similar) has a much more extensive list. The ratings vary a little bit from location to location, based on average local wind strengths, & how well models of a particular design do in that area in terms of true speed & winning races. And you'll find plenty of other PHRF rating charts for various locales if you do a search. Plus I have a copy of the big, extensive version put out by US Sailing which I found online.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Here's another tool, listing the key dimensions of quite a large number of boats. And you can also look up info on hundreds of designs on www.sailboatdata.com Plus, when in doubt, contact the design firm of the boat, as well as doing an online search about it. If a design's known to be heavier than her supposed spec's, the information will turn up readily enough. And with a bit of searching, so will her sailing characteristics.
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...Dimensions.pdf

Yacht clubs are another tool to find this information, as well as feedback on how any particular design truly sails. Especially with regards to high end boats such as those you're considering. And definitely also look up & read about your candidate boats via their owner's associations. If something's a dog in light air, it'll definitely be a topic that's mentioned & discussed.

One other thing is that you're probably best to simply compare the boat's basic (essentially empty) displacements & SADR's based on them, to one another. As you'll load about the same amount of gear onto boats in the same size range anyway.
Though, if it matters, I figure that for cruising one adds about:
3,000 - 3,500lbs to a 35' boat
2 - 2.5 tons to a 40'er
3 - 4 tons to a 45'er
5 tons for a 50'er
etc.

But the numbers vary based on what you take in terms of toys, tools, spares, tankage, long term food stocks, extra chain & anchors, battery bank size, gensets (or not) & books. Those tend to be the heavy items. Ones which you have more control over.
And keep in mind that the guys who race around the world solo can fit all of their personal & food prep gear into just a milk crate or two, literally. So weight control is up to you.

One 'trick" from racing that I advise everyone to do, is to fully offload EVERYTHING onboard at least once a year, if not more frequently. Inventory it, & only put back onboard that which you need. As generally it's all of the nice to have items which make boats ride lower in the water. And if you want to be OCD about this, weigh each item as it comes off or goes onto the boat. That way you know exactly how much cargo you have.

On some of the boats I race on/have raced on, we even do this daily. Or prior to any race of consequence. And in doing so it's easy to shave hundreds of pounds off of how much stuff you have onboard.
If you haven't used it in a year do you really need it? And when you're out & about... shopping, prior to buying something, literally ask yourself the questions:
- Do I need this item, or want it? AKA will I die if I don't buy it.
- Where will I store it?
- How much upkeep, as well as spare parts will it require us to carry in order to maintain it. Ditto on the number of hours devoted to same.
These questions also help you to get a better idea of the true cost of the item, long term. As well as said piece of kit's weight.

For me, the exceptions to the "have I used it in the last year" rule, are keeping some extra chain & a spare anchor or two onboard, stored centrally in the boat, down low. And some extra rode, as well as running rigging.
Since sometimes you may be protecting your boat by temporarily loaning out a piece of chain, anchor or rode to your neighbor, who without it, may drag down on you in a storm.

And on cordage, it pays (literally) to stock up on the high tech stuff when you find it cheap. As in some places the price of Spectra or Spectra cored lines is rediculious. So when I find it cheap, I literally buy a spool of the stuff (600'). Since it doesn't really have a shelf life, & is eminently useful... for your boat, or as trading stock.
I've yet to pay more than 1/3 or 1/2 of the retail price for Amsteel blue in any size. Or for Warpspeed up to 11mm in diameter.


EDIT: For a better, more realistic view of boatspeed, it's worth reading this thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ke-188507.html
And in it, pay attention to TJ D's comments, as they have a FAST boat, as denoted by her spec's. Which more about her can be found here Technical Details | The new Adventures of s/v Rocket Science
Riptide 55 | Bieker Boats | Seattle, WA

[UNCIVILIZED]

PS: If you really want speed (& comfort), a big custom multihull is really the way to go. Though there are a few production, & semi-custom multi's which also qualify. But regardless of make/type, they need to be kept light. And in order to really do well in light winds (under 10kts), you'll want a Bruce Number of 1.5 or so. Calculated when the boat's loaded with her gear. SA/D Calculator
For example, this boat. Though you needn't necessarily buy/build one this large. Sail Surf ROAM
Here's a smaller option s/v LightSpeed Chris White Atlantic 42 Catamaran

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by jt11791

I should not have called out the Oyster 53 alone, as most of the boats on our short list have similar rigs, for examples:

Morris 51 -> 16.7
Outbound 46 -> 18.8
Jeanneau 50DS -> 16.7
Oyster 53 -> 15.7

A fair point made earlier in the thread is the difficulty in obtaining accurate, as-cruised, displacement values. So the above numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. I'm also not trying to boil any boat's sailing performance down to one number. Here, I focused on SA/D as a value I'm well familiar with over a wide range of sailing abilities in hope of extrapolating what I know best (in shore sailing in boats 30'-38') to what I don't know well (off shore sailing boats 50'+). I started the thread as a reality check and it's been helpful. Most of the cruisers I look at are in the 16-18 range and I need some confidence that I'm not going off the deep end when considering cruising a boat at SA/D of 25.

I will try to get out sailing on as many of these as possible.

You don't really say where you plan to be sailing. Sail Pacific Mexico and you'll need lots of canvas. Do tradewind runs in the season, not so much.
We cruised our J/37 continuously for a few years with sa/d of 21+. I took off the 140% headsail and permentaly mounted a heavier 100% jib. With that setup we usually kept up with mid-40 foot cruising boats on passages.
Now cruise on an Outbound 44 at around SA/d of 18. 80+% of sailing in the past few years, about 23,000 miles, has been using the smaller Solent stay 95% jib. For me an easily driven hull with a good main sail is what I want for cruising.