Beneteau oceanis 55

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

I am all for the new designs, but I am wondering if when loaded down for cruising if they are any faster than the yachts in the 80's and 90's. From what I can see with the Oceanis 55 in trial runs, they were pushing hard to get 10 knots out of her on fairly ideal conditions without being loaded down.
I don't need to search very far to find 80's and 90's 55'-60' performance cruisers like the Swans and Peterson's from the 80's that can match the same speeds with all the cruising gear on-board.
So if I want to be ready and loaded down for cruising, I wonder what design would sail better in all points of sail? in a gale?
I see comments like "when loaded with 250' of chain and 2 heavy anchors in the bow, the pizza boats sail like pigs"... not to mention 60 days worth of provisions, water, fuel loaded, extra sails, spares, etc. etc. just wondering

I agree that a 55ft Swan can be as fast on an Atlantic passage as a modern boat like the Oceanis 55. The diference here is that you are comparing a top performance cruiser from 30 years ago with a modern main market cruiser.

Make that comparison between a main market cruiser from 30 years ago and the Oceanis 55 and the diference will be as big as the diference between that old main market cruiser and the old Swam: HUGE.

Besides that, the big diference is that the Swan will need a crew to go fast while the Oceanis will need a much reduced crew do to its much easiness and superior ability to go fast on autopilot.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree that a 55ft Swan can be as fast on an Atlantic passage as a modern boat like the Oceanis 55. The diference here is that you are comparing a top performance cruiser from 30 years ago with a modern main market cruiser.

Make that comparison beftween a main market cruiser from 30 years ago and the Oceanis 55 and the diference will be as big as the diference between that old main market cruiser and the old Swam: HUGE.

Besides that, the big diference is that the Swan will need a crew to go fast while the Oceanis will need a much reduced crew do to its much easiness and superior ability to go fast on autopilot.

Polux, your starting to use words like Trump..."Huge" next you'll be saying the new boats are bigly,
You're all over the map, accepting the fact that a 30 year old Swan is just as fast as a new Beneteau, something experienced sailors already knew but the new guys were still drinking the cool aide about how fast the new cruisers are.
Your huge number between a Swan of 30 years ago compared to a cruiser 30 years ago really wasn't that much, as I said in another post, maybe a couple of knots. New racers are probably 20 knots faster than their cruising brothers.....now that is "HUGE" !!!!!!!

[AJPT]

Originally Posted by WestCoastRix

Hey AJ,

Did you make it to the boat show? If you did, anything interesting?

There wasn't a lot of sail boats there, being London it was geared up for the big spenders, sunseeker, Princess etc.

Did spend about 45 minutes on the sense 57 with the broker. Im really torn on that boat, I like it and it makes sense (excuse the pun) but there is something I just can't quite put my finger on. Its a beautiful boat and I'm sure it would take you anywhere with ease. I liked the cabin concept and storage, massive storage!

We also went on the jeaneau 54 which had the galley where the stbd cabin would be. Wasn't keen on that, the fridges were impossible to get to if you are 6ft like me. It was OK but I walked off it feeling nothing if I'm honest. I still think the 55 and hanse 588 are the best in our budget.

However there are quite a few new 50 ft boats out this year and still some we haven't viewed. Dufour 56 GL, new hanse 535, new bavaria c57 and the new grand soleil 50.

A great time for boat buyers, so much choice and competition.

Did you go?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you want information about the performance of different types of boats on ARC go to my ARC thread were instead of a very partial information a single case can have you will have information regarding the comparison between hundreds of boats.

You do a good job in compiling ARC info but boats sailing in similar conditions on the same day as us mean much more to me when comparing performance.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

More stability when you join the huge stability of a beamy boat to the stability of the ballast put down at the end of a deep keel is a FACT not something that is worth to be discussed.

Regarding particular boats you have to take each case separately. Certainly the Contessa 32 is a very seaworthy boat, having almost 50% of its weight on ballast, even if not on an efficient modern way. That makes it a boat with a very good final stability but due to his narrow beam not a boat with a huge overall stability for the size.

Regarding fast modern boat of about that size there are several that have a great overall stability and a very good final stability, you can take for example the Django 980.
Django 980 - vidéo Dailymotion

Not many old boats are like the Contessa, with almost 50% of the ballast on the keel and having a considerable draft, not many modern boats like the Django 980 simply because the ones that want to sail far and away prefere to do it on a bigger boat.

Sure the Contessa will have a better final stability, meaning a bigger AVS but will have much less overall stability (a worse dynamic stability too) and will be more easily rolled by a wave, recovering faster (with the mast still on is another question).

The Django will be considerably more difficult to be rolled by a wave and if that happens will be able to recover easily due to a good AVS, but not as fast as the Contessa.

Pick your choice, they are both very seaworthy little boats, but off course, the Django will have a hugely bigger living interior and it would be incomparably faster, specially on a beam reach and downwind.

You didn't tell me the range of self righting on your example, do you have that information? Polux as we both know that beam adds to stability, no argument, it's what keeps catamarans from flipping but in monos as soon the boat has been rolled to 90 degrees, if that should happen, then your beam adds nothing to stability in fact it probably adds works against it, after that it's all about the ballast and the depth of the ballast. Like in Cats wide beam adds to the stability if the boat is rolled and beamy boats like to remain upside down if turned turtle while a narrower boat will quickly self right. Everyone has seen pictures of the beamy race boats of the past laying upside down unable to right themselves. The stability of beamy boats is over rated because the underwater profile shows that only a small portion of beam is actually in the water so while I agree that a beamy boat does get more initial stability it diminishes very quickly when heeled. Personally I think the new Pizza racers are amazing boats and are safe offshore boats but their beamy and lightly shallow ballasted look a like cruisers, not so much. They may look similar but they share nothing but the look.

[Bubu delaMancha]

Originally Posted by AJPT

However there are quite a few new 50 ft boats out this year and still some we haven't viewed. Dufour 56 GL, new hanse 535, new bavaria c57 and the new grand soleil 50.

A great time for boat buyers, so much choice and competition.

Did you go?

We went there on Saturday. Also spent some time on the sense 57,must say I do like cockpit arch and solid roof. Have been told they will maybe be introducing that to Oceanis range too. The floors were however quite squeaky and it didnt sound very securing

We did like the Hanse 455 i think it was. Nice quality interior.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by AJPT

There wasn't a lot of sail boats there, being London it was geared up for the big spenders, sunseeker, Princess etc.

Did spend about 45 minutes on the sense 57 with the broker. Im really torn on that boat, I like it and it makes sense (excuse the pun) but there is something I just can't quite put my finger on. Its a beautiful boat and I'm sure it would take you anywhere with ease. I liked the cabin concept and storage, massive storage!

We also went on the jeaneau 54 which had the galley where the stbd cabin would be. Wasn't keen on that, the fridges were impossible to get to if you are 6ft like me. It was OK but I walked off it feeling nothing if I'm honest. I still think the 55 and hanse 588 are the best in our budget.

However there are quite a few new 50 ft boats out this year and still some we haven't viewed. Dufour 56 GL, new hanse 535, new bavaria c57 and the new grand soleil 50.

A great time for boat buyers, so much choice and competition.

Did you go?

They are not brand new anymore but I was very impressed with the Beneteau 57. It's center cocpit which you may or may not like but it's very well constructed and would be a great offshore boat and it's much quicker than I was lead to believe. We sailed in a large group for a few months which was 1/3 cats and the rest different monohulls and no one even came close to keeping up with that Beneteau 57. It's design and build was to compete with a higher build spec from other upper spec builders, I'm told they lost money on this boat. I was very impressed with the quality and sailing ability and load hauling. I'd seriously look at one myself if I was boat shopping in that size range. Bruce Farr doesn't design slow boats.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux, your starting to use words like Trump..."Huge" next you'll be saying the new boats are bigly,
You're all over the map, accepting the fact that a 30 year old Swan is just as fast as a new Beneteau, something experienced sailors already knew but the new guys were still drinking the cool aide about how fast the new cruisers are.
Your huge number between a Swan of 30 years ago compared to a cruiser 30 years ago really wasn't that much, as I said in another post, maybe a couple of knots. New racers are probably 20 knots faster than their cruising brothers.....now that is "HUGE" !!!!!!!

I agree about the diference being a couple of knots, but on a 22 day sail passage, for instance an Atlantic crossing, that, both being main market cruiser's of the same type, one new other 30 year old, will mean the new boat will arrive 6 days earlier. Maybe that is not huge for you but it certainly is huge for me.

You forget what is more important regarding a moderm mass production boat of about the same size being able to do it on the same time of a 30 year old top performance cruiser: On the Swan you need an expert crew to do that, on the Oceanis 55 you can do it with a very small crew and most of the time on autopilot (if they have a good one).

That "small" diference has a huge importance to cruisers.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by AJPT

There wasn't a lot of sail boats there, being London it was geared up for the big spenders, sunseeker, Princess etc.

Did spend about 45 minutes on the sense 57 with the broker. Im really torn on that boat, I like it and it makes sense (excuse the pun) but there is something I just can't quite put my finger on. Its a beautiful boat and I'm sure it would take you anywhere with ease. I liked the cabin concept and storage, massive storage!

We also went on the jeaneau 54 which had the galley where the stbd cabin would be. Wasn't keen on that, the fridges were impossible to get to if you are 6ft like me. It was OK but I walked off it feeling nothing if I'm honest. I still think the 55 and hanse 588 are the best in our budget.

However there are quite a few new 50 ft boats out this year and still some we haven't viewed. Dufour 56 GL, new hanse 535, new bavaria c57 and the new grand soleil 50.

A great time for boat buyers, so much choice and competition.

Did you go?

The Dusseldorf boat show is the place to go to see monohull sailboats. nothing compares to it not only because it is the biggest but also because it has a much bigger proportion of sailboats. This time I will have the company of an American that I still don't know personally. It starts next week or so.

The Grand Soleil 50 is not the same type of boat but a performance cruiser and substantially more expensive in what regards size. But then the Sense 57 is also more expensive regarding the Oceanis 55.

The boat from Grand Soleil that might interest you (unless you are looking for the wrong type of boat) is the new LC 52. If it is as good as the 46, and given the type of boat you seem to want, is by far the best, I mean regarding the interior it is a personal choice, I am talking about built quality and speed. It will be probably also the more expensive.


The LC 52 is still being made and they will be at Dusseldorf with the GS 46LC e GS 58.

I guess that you can judge by the smaller 46 how it is going to be the 52 and if it is inside your budget and that is what you want you can get a really big discount if you command one at the boat show (all the brands do that). I am sure they will have several boats commanded already and they will have more at the Dusseldorf boat show.

There is also a sailboat you did not mentioned, it is the same type of sailboat than the Hanse and the Beneteau that you did not mentioned. the Wauquiez Centurion 57:


The boat surprisingly won last year European yacht of the year and i say surprisingly because the boat had nothing new. He won it because it was a very good sailboat, with good very good quality anywhere, including built.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-KmMgMPTI

You have also another option but I doubt you like the interior, it is the More 55. Several had done the ARC this year all sailing well. They are as expensive as the Oceanis 55 but have a better built quality and are also more sportive boats, about as much as the Grand Soleil 50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZWWPn1sJIY

Not saying with all this that the Oceanis or the Hanse are not well built, but there is diferences. The more 55 born from a Swedish charter company (that charters on the med and Caribbean with the same boats) that was fed up with having problems with the mass production boats they had and decided to make one for their one use, a fast charter boat. They have done that taking personnel and now how from Salona that had problems. The boats are built in Croatia.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree about the diference being a couple of knots, but on a 22 day sail passage, for instance an Atlantic crossing, that, both being main market cruiser's of the same type, one new other 30 year old, will mean the new boat will arrive 6 days earlier. Maybe that is not huge for you but it certainly is huge for me.

You forget what is more important regarding a moderm mass production boat of about the same size being able to do it on the same time of a 30 year old top performance cruiser: On the Swan you need an expert crew to do that, on the Oceanis 55 you can do it with a very small crew and most of the time on autopilot (if they have a good one).

That "small" diference has a huge importance to cruisers.

I understand where your coming from but my point is that there isn't 2 knots between a well designed cruiser from the 90's and the current group. We crossed in 18.5 days to St. Maarten which is close to 100 miles further west than St. Lucia where the ARC finishes. So take almost a day off for the additional distance sailed and you would have had to sail the ARC in 11.5 days to average 2 knots faster using your numbers. Go back into your ARC numbers and find me a cruising couple in a 42 ft modern and fast boat that sailed the ARC in 11.5 days. I know for a fact that many brand new boats didn't even do as good as us so I'm just not bought into all the hype about how fast the newer boats are. If you talk about cruisers like a Pogo or similar I'm in your corner, those are very exciting boats but the typical high production cruisers, not so much.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I understand where your coming from but my point is that there isn't 2 knots between a well designed cruiser from the 90's and the current group. ....

We were talking about 30 year old boats and that's you that said there was a couple of K diference. I just agreed. Even if that diference was not 1k we would be talking about a 3 day diference on an Atlantic Crossing. that continues to be huge to me.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree about the diference being a couple of knots, but on a 22 day sail passage, for instance an Atlantic crossing, that, both being main market cruiser's of the same type, one new other 30 year old, will mean the new boat will arrive 6 days earlier. Maybe that is not huge for you but it certainly is huge for me.

You forget what is more important regarding a moderm mass production boat of about the same size being able to do it on the same time of a 30 year old top performance cruiser: On the Swan you need an expert crew to do that, on the Oceanis 55 you can do it with a very small crew and most of the time on autopilot (if they have a good one).

That "small" diference has a huge importance to cruisers.

Unless it has a much longer waterline and a professional racing crew, a modern hull shape is NOT going to shave 6 days off an Atlantic crossing over a traditional hull shape sailed by a cruising couple. If the boats have similar waterline lengths, then the modern hull will be able to achieve slightly higher speeds in light winds and will point a little higher, but when reaching in 15+ knots (enough wind for almost any sailboat to achieve hull speed), or when motoring, both boats will go just about the same speed that's dependent mostly on their waterline length and how hard their crew is comfortable enough to push them. I'm sure that a modern, shallow hull shape will use its greater initial stability to easily walk all over a traditional cruising sailboat during test sails in the bay on a nice day, but over long distances in actual offshore conditions, I think the difference in usable speed is much less than it at first appears to be.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Unless it has a much longer waterline and a professional racing crew, a modern hull shape is NOT going to shave 6 days off an Atlantic crossing over a traditional hull shape sailed by a cruising couple. ....

I did not say that. I was talking between a new design and a 30year old design, being both main market sailboats. There are contemporary sailed designed sailboats with hull shapes not influenced by Open boats, but by IRC boats and those can be considered more traditional hull shapes.

And even in what regards the generality of boats I agree that 6 days is too much. I was just making fun about Robert saying that a couple of K diference was not much regarding sailing boats. The diference I have been seeing on the ARC is about 3 days, more or less depending on the boat.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Polux

The diference I have been seeing on the ARC is about 3 days, more or less depending on the boat.

That seems about right. Raven, our 1983 Nauticat 52, crossed in just a freckle over 19 days. Same basic route as the ARC, but not a part of the rally and, in all honesty, when the wind died, the motor was used.

I should mention, too, that this was prior to me owning the boat. I'm just going by the log books that were left behind by previous owners.

[robert sailor]

Polux I think your thought process of suggesting boats like that GS LC are good. I didn't even know these designs existed so I took the time to look into them. From my first impressions you do pay a bit more for a boat like this but I think you get a real nice boat that is really is designed for unlimited offshore cruising. It also has good features as to how they keep the weight really low and the storage really workable. I tend to be a bit on the conservative side, been playing this game for too many years but it wouldn't take much to talk me into a similar design. Even the layout below is better for offshore than most of the higher production boats. I think you might do better on resale as well as its a known higher end brand with less competition.