1959 Hinckley 42 Yawl

[stavok]

"I could care less about what the boat is worth when I am finished. I have 25-30 years I can actively sale a boat like this, if i spend 100k...."

Freudian slip? Judging by the last few responses the correct nerve has finally been poked.

For every example of a successful consortium or overseas labor or bottomless wallet restoration you will find 100 cases where someone spent their prime years in a "labor of love" only to have to sell (usually due to health reasons) and never actually get to SAIL. If your love is sailing, buy a boat and sail. If you love to work and are an experienced craftsman with a garage full of teak and woodworking machines - go for it! If you know how to survey a wood boat and you bring an awl and can't find a single piece of soft wood- go for it!

Please understand I am a huge fan of wood boats. I will be the first in line on the dock to admire any wood sailing vessel.

Forgive me, but if someone had the skills, knowledge and experience to purchase and own a 60 year old wood boat they wouldn't be here asking questions about it.

ps. Black is the WORST color for a boat. Folly is trying to fight thermodynamics. Go look at black boats in a boatyard.

pss. There is another boatyard in Deltaville with literally dozens of abandoned classic wood boats in various states of rot- awaiting a "consortium". Very depressing.

[Cynara]

There are boat builders and boat sailors

[thesaltytar]

Originally Posted by stavok

"I could care less about what the boat is worth when I am finished. I have 25-30 years I can actively sale a boat like this, if i spend 100k...."

Freudian slip? Judging by the last few responses the correct nerve has finally been poked.

For every example of a successful consortium or overseas labor or bottomless wallet restoration you will find 100 cases where someone spent their prime years in a "labor of love" only to have to sell (usually due to health reasons) and never actually get to SAIL. If your love is sailing, buy a boat and sail. If you love to work and are an experienced craftsman with a garage full of teak and woodworking machines - go for it! If you know how to survey a wood boat and you bring an awl and can't find a single piece of soft wood- go for it!

Please understand I am a huge fan of wood boats. I will be the first in line on the dock to admire any wood sailing vessel.

Forgive me, but if someone had the skills, knowledge and experience to purchase and own a 60 year old wood boat they wouldn't be here asking questions about it.

ps. Black is the WORST color for a boat. Folly is trying to fight thermodynamics. Go look at black boats in a boatyard.

pss. There is another boatyard in Deltaville with literally dozens of abandoned classic wood boats in various states of rot- awaiting a "consortium". Very depressing.

OP: this is almost a textbook response. Get used to this because you will see it everywhere. Get very very used to it.

There are many ways to respond to this but over time I have gradually stopped bothering. The important thing is not to feel sucked in or personally attacked. This goes back to the people with strong opinions mentioned far earlier.

Opinions are subjective things fueled by emotion. If you try hard enough maybe you can debate someone into a corner where their stated opinion flips on itself due to an internally inconsistent logical metric. That may give you a moment of satisfaction but I find it fleeting which is why I tend not to be sucked into taking debates with other people too seriously, especially people I meet on the internet.

The problem is boats are also subjective things fueled by emotion, and something people tend to forget is that we don't go to sea because it makes sense. Disposable income and a higher standard of living means we get to do things for fun now our ancestors would have gaped at. Recreational running comes to mind. But why not take it a step further and single-handedly replicate a merchant ship and sail it around the world for fun? Over simplifying of course but the point is we're not in the boating business because it's good financial advice from our accountants.

Now Stavok is correct in knowing your motivations. If you want to sail then sail. But this does overlook some nuance. If you want to get from A to B most logically I might recommend a plane ticket. It generally comes out much cheaper as investments go. But it's about HOW we get from A to B and if a certain type of boat or certain method of conveyance calls to you, then you have your answer, and the plane ticket simply isn't appealing anymore. Same goes for modern boats for me. It's why I searched hard to find a small gaff-rigged schooner. It's what floats my boat and I don't like winches. Bleh. I have two such monstrosities on my deck but I have learned to live with them.

This is where I begin to be confused: that if you had the abilities and knowledge to do something you wouldn't be here on the forum.

Well obviously.

Heaps of people who want to learn more about cruising and sailing and one of the ways they do so is by pooling collective knowledge from other cruisers.

It's why we have this forum.

So Stavok is correct technically speaking. No of course you don't have the knowledge and skills to care for a 60 year old boat. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. People aren't born with the ability to replace planks or pay a seam. It's just an odd observation you could apply to anyone on a forum asking a question.

Finally... Your black hull seems to have stood up fine and looks fair. Any color you switch to will only be lighter than black so I just wouldn't worry about it. Wood is a natural insulator. You have bigger fish to fry. Pardon the thermal pun.

And as for all the other derelict boats in the world... I agree you shouldn't purchase a derelict boat straight out the gates.

THAT would be my #1 advice to people wanting to get into wood boats. Get one that sails. Then sail. It's a lot easier (emotionally and financially) to learn wood boats by maintaining them than by rebuilding them. And from the pictures you showed us there's no real rebuilding required.

Wood boat doesn't = derelict, and comparing that Hinckley to those derelicts cited is an apples to oranges.. or at least rotten apples.. comparison.

And then go sailing and watch people look your way and swear that what you're doing is physically impossible while you're doing it. I admit that bit is rewarding to me.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Hinckley or Die

Gonna get rid of the CNG as well.

CNG is functional and available on the Chesapeake. If you can't find it, contact me offline and I can fix you up.

Converting to propane is quite expensive. Easily $5,000. The stove alone is very expensive (in years past you could buy conversion kits, but most of the stoves no longer have those kits). Building a suitable propane locker is no easy task. And then all the hoses need to be replaced and propane sniffers installed.

Think long and hard before you casually say that you will replace the CNG. A cylinder of CNG, less than $100, should last the casual cruiser about a season. Unless you intend to do long-term and geographically diverse cruising, there is no return on the investment.

[thesaltytar]

Here is a surveying resource that I used in preparation for inspecting my own vessel. It's focused on fiberglass but still a lot of good info:

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Marin...rvey%20101.htm

[stavok]

I don't disagree with anything thesaltytar wrote and the pictures look far from a derelict (but they are not going to post pictures of the rot now are they). The problem is even a brand new boat can be a troubleshooting nightmare and ruin your day with failures. I didn't study the thread to know the OP's boat owning history. Unless OP is the pilot/engineer/jack of all trades type most would say the subject boat would be a poor choice as a first boat (unless working and not sailing is the objective). I met an exceedingly smart and practical engineer this summer in the boatyard who had owned and refurbished in excess of 30 boats in his advanced years. Easily an expert, yet he admitted he caught less than half the problems in boats before purchase. The other problems revealed themselves in their unique way (generally the worst possible timing). It's not what you know that is the problem it is what you don't know. Most surveyors will catch enough for you to hammer the seller but don't think they will find everything. Finally, and then I'll shut up, I see the word "bride". Ask her honestly if she wants to go sailing or wants to sand, paint, and inhale fumes. Unless both parties are truly loving boats and the time and expense involved, boats of any size generally become a wedge in the marriage...

[Cynara]

Five thousand to convert? I don't think so. Solenoid shutoff $100.00. Tank $100.00 hoses $100 we mounted our tanks on the stearn zero dollars. That leaves you a lot for a stove

[sailingharry]

Okay, maybe a little exaggerated. The stove is in excess of $2,000. Not sure many people would think mounting propane on the stern pulpit is fitting for a Hinckley, but that does make it less expensive. Unless you do your own work (I do, but don't know about the op), there's installation costs as well. And the alarm system price varies but is at least a couple hundred.

But I agree, if you mount the tanks on the rail, and do all your own work, the price is under $3,000. But even at $2000, it would take 20 years to recover the cost of the CNG refills.

[Hinckley or Die]

So it took so long (meetings and business) for me to respond it booted my response out, and it was a good one....so here is another attempt:

I am going to attempt to clarify what my desires are for purchasing a wooden sailboat. (Which I have just realized this in the last few months) I want to restore a boat. I will not however rebuild a boat. That is not my desire. I want to take something that is serviceable and make it a jewel. I like shiny winches (sorry salty, I understand the love of gaff rigged boats and the simplicity), shiny bright work, shiny hulls...and I like the work that goes into it. I have decided to engage instead of just read in this forum because I have respect for people that live the cruising life, do the work it takes to live that life, and I am humble enough to KNOW that they know more than I. Cruisers and Sailors do all their work in the worst possible conditions (usually on the water, far from home).

So information and knowledge is the main reason. So all the input is desired, negative and positive. Condescending is not, but I understand that is human nature...ego is a strange and wonderful thing. That brings me to say, "Stavok, please forgive my response to your post, I did not detach from my ego and was somewhat aggressive" I do however thank you for your feedback.

I run all my decisions through a hybrid OODA Loop:
1) I consider time and timing
2) I run it through 4 laws of combat
3) I determine what role MY ego is playing in the decision
4) Perspective, this is where I am in the loop. I try and gain as much perspective as possible. I try to have a bias against my decision (sometimes hard, that sticky ego again) That is my purpose for joining 5 boards, for asking the questions, and listening (reading) points of view. I try hard to detach from my emotions and take everyone else's emotions into the calculus. I ask all my family, friends and now subject matter experts.
5) Mission- does this decision forward my strategic mission (as I head into retirement, yes, yes it does on many fronts)
6) Relationship capitol/Leadership capitol: If i have to force this on the people I care most about, it is a bad decision.

All that being said I am in the orient stage of the loop. I am seeking input and working toward a decision. A figure that will be prominent in that orient phase will be the surveyor. I need to know where the boat lies between brand new and it's so tired a rebuild is needed. I don't have that knowledge or expertise, nor will I gain it from the volumes of books I am reading. I will defer that to a professional. I have an excellent resource on another forum that is going to help me through that process. I will actually go see the boat, any boat during the process before I spend $$ on a survey. I was very much enamored with S&S designed Tartan, but my wife hated the cockpit. (TOO small and cramped, poor location of the traveler, etc.) I was not willing to spend the relationship capitol to force that. I also was able to move on without spending more than a day trip (which I loved) and gas to get there (not as small an investment as it used to be)

I look at this as an investment in self. Some of the comments are about ROI. I have stated that doesn't matter. It doesn't in the typical way ROI is measured. I measure it like this: When I refurb/refresh a boat, what knowledge will I gain? What skills will I learn and perfect? How more patient of a person will I be? Will this make me a better human? Then there is the strategic factors of when I am blessed to be a grandfather (many years from now, the daughter is 16), how much will this enrich that relationship? When I am retired will this give me purpose? As I go into the sunset years how many friends will I have made simply because I redid a boat? The community built is priceless.

Also, what conversations will spark an interest in others in restoring wood boats? How would that be a bad thing? More people ridding overcrowded marinas chocked full of rotting wooden boats (sorry, sarcasm got the better of me)

Thanks everyone for your opinion and input, please keep it coming. I will post questions and continue this thread until I get a Hinckley or Die

[Hinckley or Die]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

CNG is functional and available on the Chesapeake. If you can't find it, contact me offline and I can fix you up.

Converting to propane is quite expensive. Easily $5,000. The stove alone is very expensive (in years past you could buy conversion kits, but most of the stoves no longer have those kits). Building a suitable propane locker is no easy task. And then all the hoses need to be replaced and propane sniffers installed.

Think long and hard before you casually say that you will replace the CNG. A cylinder of CNG, less than $100, should last the casual cruiser about a season. Unless you intend to do long-term and geographically diverse cruising, there is no return on the investment.

I wasn't trying to sound casual. I simply would eliminate the need for CNG or Propane. My thoughts were to go with a basic Alcohol Stove (not pressurized).

What is everyone's thoughts on that? Keep in mind I will not be extended cruising.

Questions would be:

Danger? Is it really dangerous to have an alcohol burner on a wooden boat? I now the flame is hard to see, it burns cooler, will it burn long enough to ignite a counter top? It get put out with water, but would it spread fast?

I know the downfalls are lengthened cook times and tea pot boils. I am good with that if the trade off is removal of tanks, and increased safety.

[Cynara]

How much fuel will you have to carry. Where will you store it. Propane is safe as long as your not stupid. If you live in the US drive through the midwest and other remote places and notice all the large tanks marked flammable. They are all propane

[Hinckley or Die]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

CNG is functional and available on the Chesapeake. If you can't find it, contact me offline and I can fix you up.

Converting to propane is quite expensive. Easily $5,000. The stove alone is very expensive (in years past you could buy conversion kits, but most of the stoves no longer have those kits). Building a suitable propane locker is no easy task. And then all the hoses need to be replaced and propane sniffers installed.

Think long and hard before you casually say that you will replace the CNG. A cylinder of CNG, less than $100, should last the casual cruiser about a season. Unless you intend to do long-term and geographically diverse cruising, there is no return on the investment.

Originally Posted by Cynara

How much fuel will you have to carry. Where will you store it. Propane is safe as long as your not stupid. If you live in the US drive through the midwest and other remote places and notice all the large tanks marked flammable. They are all propane

I have liquid propane heat at my house, buried tank, ventless fireplace. I know it is safe. If you aren't stupid.

I am just looking at simple. I won't need much fuel at all. I would say a normal tank of propane would last a couple seasons for use on the boat. Not sure what that would equate to in Alcohol I would maybe take bunch weekend trips then a week or two a year, day sail mostly. if you know Tidewater VA, that would be cold sandwiches...wouldn't be cooking on a no AC boat.

If it is smarter to keep something like propane, I'd most likely just keep the current system and make sure everything is safe and up to date. I was thinking that Alcohol would simplify the systems. One less thing that would be subjected to elements, one less thing to go wrong.

[barryglewis]

We've had alcohol / methylated spirits stove on Risky Business for over 50k miles cruised.
Put out a couple of burning spills with water (note our stove compartment is watertight) no worries. No problems seeing flame etc. It does burn cooler than gas .Ours is a Maxine stove brand and the burners burn out after a few years, and it's no longer in production. Biggest problem was poor quality fuel outside of Australia where we get 1st class meths from supermarket. Unless Origo come back we will replace with a couple of Origo style camping burners.

[jpendoley]

Have been following this thread closely and will address a couple of points brought up earlier and offer one more perspective that might encourage you to move forward with the boat. I’m a serial refitter by inclination and out of financial necessity. I simply love beautiful old boats and can not afford to buy them in sail away condition. While my projects are all glass, many of the obstacles are similar in scale if not in kind.
For example, I spent half of one summer grinding my old Pearson Vanguard’s bottom due to failing, ancient gel coat dropping off the bottom. I wanted to do it right and after lots of reading and the advice of a good surveyor, stripped the bottom, tented it, dehumidified and heated the enclosure and ground and faired a new bottom. This was before the advent of gelcoat peelers and dustless grinding. It was hot and miserable work, but I was young and loved the lines of my old Rhodes designed cruiser. At one point a wooden boat wright stopped by to bolster my flagging spirits and sagely opined “people say wooden boats are too much work, but when I see owners covered in glass fibers stripping boat bottoms I kind of wonder…”. He had a lovely wooden Dickerson yawl that launched every year well before me.
Fast forward thirty years, that sloop is still sailing and well restored, but captained by my daughter and her husband. You see, she grew up vacationing on that boat and spent many days working alongside me during its restoration. Four years ago she honeymooned aboard in Maine and she’s aboard now honing her sailing and maintenance skills.
The point is, a thing of beauty can also be a treasured family heirloom and contribute to the building of lasting relationships and cherished shared memories. I spent money far beyond what I would ever recoup in a sale, but I wouldn’t trade the experience, skills and fun I had for all the low maintenance newer “plastic fantastics” I see in my marina. The skills I acquired working on all of my restoration efforts have made each subsequent restoration easier and qualitatively better. Beauty is skin deep it’s true, but ugly cuts to the bone. The boat you are looking at looks like a wonderful project and she has beautiful bones. I say it’s a worthy undertaking.
Lastly, on the issue of propane. I’ve had both alcohol and propane on my boats. The Vanguard had an alcohol stove the kids called “the dragon”. Preheating it was a act of derring do-curtains were scorched, galley fires quenched. It’s probably why I no longer like curtains on a boat. I have never had a propane induced galley fire. When you can, safely upgrade to propane done to ABYC standards and instill a sniffer. It’s not rocket science.

[Hinckley or Die]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Have been following this thread closely and will address a couple of points brought up earlier and offer one more perspective that might encourage you to move forward with the boat. I’m a serial refitter by inclination and out of financial necessity. I simply love beautiful old boats and can not afford to buy them in sail away condition. While my projects are all glass, many of the obstacles are similar in scale if not in kind.
For example, I spent half of one summer grinding my old Pearson Vanguard’s bottom due to failing, ancient gel coat dropping off the bottom. I wanted to do it right and after lots of reading and the advice of a good surveyor, stripped the bottom, tented it, dehumidified and heated the enclosure and ground and faired a new bottom. This was before the advent of gelcoat peelers and dustless grinding. It was hot and miserable work, but I was young and loved the lines of my old Rhodes designed cruiser. At one point a wooden boat wright stopped by to bolster my flagging spirits and sagely opined “people say wooden boats are too much work, but when I see owners covered in glass fibers stripping boat bottoms I kind of wonder…”. He had a lovely wooden Dickerson yawl that launched every year well before me.
Fast forward thirty years, that sloop is still sailing and well restored, but captained by my daughter and her husband. You see, she grew up vacationing on that boat and spent many days working alongside me during its restoration. Four years ago she honeymooned aboard in Maine and she’s aboard now honing her sailing and maintenance skills.
The point is, a thing of beauty can also be a treasured family heirloom and contribute to the building of lasting relationships and cherished shared memories. I spent money far beyond what I would ever recoup in a sale, but I wouldn’t trade the experience, skills and fun I had for all the low maintenance newer “plastic fantastics” I see in my marina. The skills I acquired working on all of my restoration efforts have made each subsequent restoration easier and qualitatively better. Beauty is skin deep it’s true, but ugly cuts to the bone. The boat you are looking at looks like a wonderful project and she has beautiful bones. I say it’s a worthy undertaking.
Lastly, on the issue of propane. I’ve had both alcohol and propane on my boats. The Vanguard had an alcohol stove the kids called “the dragon”. Preheating it was a act of derring do-curtains were scorched, galley fires quenched. It’s probably why I no longer like curtains on a boat. I have never had a propane induced galley fire. When you can, safely upgrade to propane done to ABYC standards and instill a sniffer. It’s not rocket science.

Thank you so much for your post. I am moving forward with "dating" this boat. I really am hoping that when the wife and I go for a little late summer get away, the boat will show in person as well as it seems to in pics. Then it will be onto a survey. I guess the big question I want answered is how much life does she have before a total re-build. I think someone earlier posted something along the lines of "a wood boat starts to decay the moment the timber is cut". I just want to be sure that I am able to take the project on and it be a reasonable amount of time from purchase to sailing. I don't want to get into a situation like Tallyho Sampson Boat Co.. Which I don't feel this particular boat is.

That is an incredible story about your daughter, and my wish would be the same for mine. She is a little older than when I would have liked to start, but she has been around boats most of her life and gets great joy being on the water.

I think the score is kinda 1-1-1 for propane, alcohol, or CNG.