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Old 19-01-2017, 06:31   #181
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Hey, you might be onto something here!
Go with twin Volvo saildrives, using Titanium fasteners, & custom Carbon Fiber drive boots
BTW that quote on your boat & what she does to (the egos of) those who drive her is a classic!
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Old 19-01-2017, 07:29   #182
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Yeah, the guy who owned the boat before us called docking her a spectator sport. Ugh.

Maybe someday I'll throw a thruster on. I just don't want the weight in the bow. We can't do a tunnel because of the huge longitudinals, it would be half out of the water, and a retractable is pretty heavy.

So, I'll probably just keep bitching about it. It's been funny since we got to Europe. They put bowthrusters on 30 footers over there. Must be the little harbors.
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Old 19-01-2017, 08:06   #183
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

coming late into this--with a mariner 40 and liking it, why not consider the ultimate pirate ship-- larger formosa or ct. or hardin 44 or 45...
pirate ship looks, character and style.
you already know how to sail em, so the performance shouldnt be too much issue--and the stability of a heavy boat is something you already know. and the abject beauty of the lines of the boat a sit charges thru the trade winds seas.
i know if it were me seeking larger boat, i would want one like the formosa 51 or force 50--with separate cabins for crew. that would be perfect.
personally, i think the lines of the new stuff are boring. nothing with character--they all look alike--like the current models cars--all same.
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Old 19-01-2017, 10:26   #184
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Hey, you might be onto something here!
Two rudders, two engines, that was already made by Alliura marine:

Half cat, half monohull, but it was not a success and they are not made anymore.

Anyway Uncivilized is right regarding some boats having the engine and the saildrive so far away from the rudder that you can not get any significant rudder effect. And for a good weight distribution the engine far away from the rudder is a good thing. I would trade that for a better rudder control at at he marina.

Maybe a boat that interest the OP is the new Feeling that is on the building stage:
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Old 22-01-2017, 04:47   #185
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

My other option is to build a new sailboat I am designing. She is 70' long, carbon and Kevlar composite, multi chine hull, movable inside ballast that is controlled by a linear drive system, rotating carbon wing mast, lifting keel so I can slip through the shallows and dagger-boards to help it track upwind. amongst other features for offshore performance sailing.
Course would have an interior that is custom made to make the wifey happy

And of course I know this would be way over my budget at the moment, so this option is only if I land a big engineering contract hahaha

If I could find the investors I would love to build this yacht in the future as a custom order for other people, but only after I build the first one and undergo some intense sea trials.

Just in case anyone asks, I use Solidworks and Catia V6 for the design software.


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Old 22-01-2017, 15:08   #186
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Regarding new fast designs and the way they are coming out of a small market niche to become a much more generalised option I think you would like to know that the European family cruiser of 2017, chosen by 11 test sailors from most of the best European sail magazines, was one of those boats, and a small one, the RM970.

Some around here will still say that is an extreme boat or a race boat:





I made a post on my blog with the comments about the boat by the 11 test sailors.
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Old 22-01-2017, 15:40   #187
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

I'm sure it sails like a witch but at 32 feet and wide open cabin as far as a full fledged offshore cruising boat it's target market in NA would be for well off 20 year old backpackers. Polux for a typical NA offshore cruiser the average sailor is just a bit older than 20 and wants a boat just a bit bigger than 32 feet. It's a cool boat but I think you are way off the mark in suggesting that this is a great cruising boat.
If I was a weekend warrior that sailed on weekends and took 3 week sailing holidays in the summer then yes, even at my age you could interest me in this boat but to put all the gear most liveaboard cruisers use 24/7 in this boat, mmmm don't think so. Nice boat though!
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Old 22-01-2017, 15:53   #188
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Regarding new fast designs and the way they are coming out of a small market niche to become a much more generalised option I think you would like to know that the European family cruiser of 2017, chosen by 11 test sailors from most of the best European sail magazines, was one of those boats, and a small one, the RM970.

Some around here will still say that is an extreme boat or a race boat:





I made a post on my blog with the comments about the boat by the 11 test sailors.
Yikes. I am SURE I would love sailing that boat... its a giant Laser with a bulb! (although I'd have to see how she is pounding to weather for a while as far as cruising comfort goes) And the fun and speed factors for me may outweigh the practical issues for my local cruising grounds... but I could definitely see how some might balk at calling that the new family cruiser.... I would like to see how that design slams into seas going upwind... if there are no bunks in the bow, all the better, but a falling flat hull in a steep chop shakes the whole boat... pretty hard to sleep for the kids.. hate to sound negative but I'll be glad to try one out for a month or two!
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Old 22-01-2017, 17:19   #189
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

The challenge is, the more racy the boat is, the less room it has inside. Even the open 70 racers would not have enough room to stand up in most of the space below. That's why if I went with my own design, I need at least 70' to keep with the racing concept of the hull, and still have enough room below to design a comfortable living space.
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Old 23-01-2017, 16:54   #190
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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I'm sure it sails like a witch but at 32 feet and wide open cabin as far as a full fledged offshore cruising boat it's target market in NA would be for well off 20 year old backpackers. Polux for a typical NA offshore cruiser the average sailor is just a bit older than 20 and wants a boat just a bit bigger than 32 feet. It's a cool boat but I think you are way off the mark in suggesting that this is a great cruising boat.
If I was a weekend warrior that sailed on weekends and took 3 week sailing holidays in the summer then yes, even at my age you could interest me in this boat but to put all the gear most liveaboard cruisers use 24/7 in this boat, mmmm don't think so. Nice boat though!
As usually I talk about facts Facts are important and your opinion or mine are irrelevant in what other sailors consider a good cruising boat, even you seem to insist that yours is determinant in what regards what is a great cruising boat or not.

You insist in consider that the type of the boat you prefer for the type of cruising you do is the perfect sailing boat from all others should be measured and i have tried to explain many times that it makes not any sense. That is only the type of boat you prefer as cruising boat.

Facts: The RM 970 was chosen as the 2017 European family cruiser by 11 test sailors from most of the best European sail magazines.

Fact: Those 11 test sailors know incomparably better than you the boats on the market and have test sailed most of them. Some of them are on the same job for decades and have not only test the ones that are on the market now, but also others that are "old" now.

Fact: You can read on my blog what they have said about the RM 970 and why they have chosen it among other nominated boats.

Fact: This is not the only time a RM was chosen as European family yacht of the year in his category, it happened in 2013 with the RM 1260 (now 1270) and they said about it:

"It’s not just her construction method that’s different. Everything about the plywood built RM is refreshing, different, fun yet highly practical. A beamy, spacious offshore cruiser with light contemporary interior, that will look after her crew and can easily be managed shorthanded – plus she sails well in all conditions..."
Read more at THE European Yachts of the Year - Yachting World

"Chines are all the rage, especially on a plywood yacht like the RM 1260. Entered as a long shot, this vessel convinced the jury with versatility and a choice of different model options. While this alone wouldn’t have won the day, the boat also scored high with impeccable performance during the evaluation."

Family Cruisers: RM 1260
This vessel convinced the jury with the versatility and range of options in different models. Besides the design, stability and comfort of a well calculated for a whole family, the yacht has proven superior performance during the evaluation. A model in which safety comes first, followed by the structure, design and performance.

Winners of 2013 European Yacht (photo)

Fact: RM yachts that have been for decades the choice of a small group of mostly French sailors, that like to cruise extensively and that remained faithful to the brand since the beginning, it is not anymore a choice for a small group of French cruisers but have increased hugely in the number of the sailors that see them as their perfect cruising boat, sailors from many nationalities.

That is also why those 11 test sailors from 11 different countries had chosen it as the European family cruisers of the year for 2 times. it would not make sense to have chosen a boat on that category as the european family cruiser if that boat, as you say, only had as target market: " it's target market in NA would be for well off 20 year old backpackers".

Besides the back packpackers are known for not having much money and has several test sailors pointed out regarding the RM 890, that is a relatively expensive boat, considerably more than other family cruisers and that is true size for size regarding all other RM models. That would have as consequence that the RM would be a marginal brand and would sell very few boats.

Fact: They have changed this year to a bigger factory to increase production and even so they only can deliver a boat that is commanded now in 2018 and past the middle of the year.

I know because I was on their stand today. I am helping a fellow american cruiser that wants a fast boat to live aboard and to cruise extensively offshore and one of the brands that we have considered was the RM (among many) and they were by far the ones that had a bigger delay on delivering boats, commissioned now, and by a margin of a full year.

Fact: There are many types of long range cruisers that don't live permanently on the boat even if obviously that is what they do while they are cruising. Some even had circumnavigated and after that cruise extensively for about 4 to 6 months on the boat each year and pass the winter with the family (I know some).

Fact: There are many liveaboards that live in boats with a considerably less interior volume this boat offers and also with less loading ability and with less storage.

Fact: Most liveaboards, if they had the money for it, would chose a bigger boat, RM or not, according with their sailing preferences.

Fact: There line of RM goes till a 13.70m boat, that due to the type of hull and the voluminous interior that offers would probably suit most liveaboards that want a bigger boat to live.

Fact: The ones that live aboard permanently (and do not have simultaneously a house) are a very small percentage regarding the ones that cruise extensively and even among the ones that circumnavigate. For cruising extensively I would say cruising non stop for more than 2 or 3 months a year. Obviously some cruise much more than that but many live aboard stay put, living on the boat on the winter and some in fact cruise much less than some that cruise actively living on the boat only some months on a year.

Fact: Saying that the RM 890 points to sailors "a bit older than 20 that are "" weekend warrior that sailed on weekends and took 3 week sailing holidays in the summer" ... is not understand at all to what type of sailors this boat is pointed too and the type of sailors that have been buying RM sailboats for decades.
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Old 23-01-2017, 17:51   #191
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Just some observations (from my untrained eye). The looks of the new boats are starting to grow on me. Especially the Italia boats. Nice "expensive" look from the outside. Although I'm still not a fan of the contemporary Ikea look of the interiors. And some of the boats have some sharp edges and lack hand holds. I'd be bruised up if I was below during heavy weather. Also, I realize you are probably running under autopilot a lot of the time, but the lack of comfortable seating (that I could see) while piloting would be a down side for me as well. If anything I really like a forward wheel like found on cats and Amels. Nothing like hiding behind a dodger during rough weather. These boats probably have a lot more storage space than they show. I also like the use of large drawers under some of the settees. I usually have a lot of stuff on my seating positions inside, at least while under way (clothes/PFDs). Would love to take one out for the day in about 20 knots to see what it was like. Speed is always nice!
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Old 23-01-2017, 19:16   #192
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

I think sometimes our emotions and heart over ride the facts hahaha.

I remember as a kid I studied Donald Mckay and his extreme clipper ship designs and read about all the naysayers that McKays Designs defied logic and went against all traditional ship building. It turned out that Mckays ships wen on to break all passage speed records and in fact McKays clipper "Flying Cloud" set a record from New York to San Fransisco around the horn in 89 days that was unbroken until "Thursdays Child" A highly modified Hunter I believe, broke the record in the 1980s, which I still believe was completely unfair being that the Flying Cloud was loaded with cargo, crew that was just taken off the street, top heavy, broke its foremast in the process, laid up in South America for 2 weeks, and of course antique technology, and Thursday's Child was an all out race boat with professional race crew!

Another of McKays Clippers did a record daily run of 465 miles, which is an average of 20 KM per hour! I have read of other accounts of extreme clippers reaching 30 KM per hour. Not bad for a loaded down cargo ship.

I began to be obsessed with sailing ships which inspired me to dream of sailing the oceans in a sailboat. Because of my obsession with the clipper ships my idea of a yacht should look somewhat like a clipper, and therefore I became a critic of all the new racing yachts.

The fact is, technology advances, and style always changes and as it should so we can develop better and faster yachts. Even though my emotions go wild everytime I see a old classic schooner sailing that draws me back to the clipper ship days, I know those old yachts and their designs are all outdated now.

So after 40 years of sailing traditional and classic designed sailboats, I now want to experience the new technology and push the envelope a little bit
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Old 23-01-2017, 19:28   #193
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

You think you could comfortably cruise in a 32 footer?
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Old 23-01-2017, 19:34   #194
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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You think you could comfortably cruise in a 32 footer?
Nope! but take the same technology and put it into a 60 footer, now we have something to talk about
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Old 24-01-2017, 06:41   #195
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Nope! but take the same technology and put it into a 60 footer, now we have something to talk about
Of course we both are on the same page. Polux does a great job in writing a long story of "facts " but one fact is I have sailed all over the place and never seen any of those boats being used by cruisers plus I made a point of specifying that this was for North American buyers notwithstanding the fact that we recently spent a couple of years cruising in the Med and didn't see any there.. I have no doubt that it's a successful yard in the niche market place and I have no doubt if I was one of the 11 sailors that tested it I'd give it a good review as well but not for a mature buyer for full time cruising in NA. I love these boats but the fact is that 80-90% of your time is at anchor and these boats are first and foremost "sailors" and don't offer the creature comforts most cruisers are looking for. Having said that Euro type cruisers are mostly part time and many spend more time dirt dwelling than cruising so he might have a point.
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