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Old 16-01-2017, 19:11   #151
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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No you are correct. Read again what I said.

Basically I was not talking about light displacement boats but between a beamy one and a narrow one. They can be both performance boats.

Regarding performance boats, specially planning boats like Pogo, yes, weight is more detrimental since their ability to plane is reduced but even so they are hugely faster than heavy boats that are almost as slow loaded or without load.


We are talking about speed but to be honest there is another factor in what regards load ability and safety and that is why a NA will establish a Max load.

When a boat is loaded its overall stability increases but its final stability and the AVS diminish so what should regulate the MAX load should not be if the boat sails faster or slower with a huge load but the load that is established as safe by the NA.

Regarding what I have saw performance boats do not have typically a max load very different from non performance boats.
Allright, first I'm wrong on this and now I'm right, doesn't make any difference,seems the old rules of thumb are still correct, thanks
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Old 17-01-2017, 01:57   #152
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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How can you compare prices of used boats with prices of new boats? The fact is that Pogo 50 exists only from some years and the ones that have them keep them. You cannot see a single used one for sell.
.
Actually Polux, that was a new boat, looks like their last one from the factory, not commissioned yet. Gotta read the whole add

But in any case I am all for the Pogo concept but it resembles too much like a daysailor to me. And my wife would never live in it because it doesn't in any way resemble a home. Would be great as a vacation boat that we could hang out on for a week or so and enter some races for fun. But long term cruising and living in and inviting our friend over to hang out on well... not so much. I'm hoping one of the companies like Pogo will come out with a hi performance cruiser with a model that has the comfort features but still not loose the performance. Another words if I could get the interior of a Jene and the Performance of a Pogo then I will jump inline
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Old 17-01-2017, 05:09   #153
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Actually Polux, that was a new boat, looks like their last one from the factory, not commissioned yet. Gotta read the whole add

But in any case I am all for the Pogo concept but it resembles too much like a daysailor to me. And my wife would never live in it because it doesn't in any way resemble a home. Would be great as a vacation boat that we could hang out on for a week or so and enter some races for fun. But long term cruising and living in and inviting our friend over to hang out on well... not so much. I'm hoping one of the companies like Pogo will come out with a hi performance cruiser with a model that has the comfort features but still not loose the performance. Another words if I could get the interior of a Jene and the Performance of a Pogo then I will jump inline
Regarding that Jeanneau 50DS, you are right the price is absolutely unbelievable. That is a model that is not produced anymore for some years and I don't know how they ended up with one in stock. It is a good boat but with a outdated hull that was used basically for the first time on the Jeanneau 49 back in 2003. A good buy anyway.



That price shows to you that the ones that buy new boats are quite perceptive in what regards that even if I agree that the diference in performance (that is not only speed) does not justify the diference in price, but the ones that have money for that kind of boat just want the best they can buy, even if more expensive.

Yes, it is not only your wife that will not like the interior of a Pogo. I believe the one of the 50ft is quite better and I never saw one. But the interior of the JPK45 is good (I had saw the smaller sister, the 38) and the one of the RM are very good. In fact that is the boat my wife likes more the interior. The RM 1270:


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Old 17-01-2017, 07:07   #154
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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.

Yes, it is not only your wife that will not like the interior of a Pogo. I believe the one of the 50ft is quite better and I never saw one. But the interior of the JPK45 is good (I had saw the smaller sister, the 38) and the one of the RM are very good. In fact that is the boat my wife likes more the interior. The RM 1270
Now we are getting closer Polux, yes the RM1270 is getting closer to wife's approval haha.
Thanks for the pictures, the aft stateroom model may just work for us
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Old 17-01-2017, 11:09   #155
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Now we are getting closer Polux, yes the RM1270 is getting closer to wife's approval haha.
Thanks for the pictures, the aft stateroom model may just work for us
The Pogo, RM, RPK, and Django (sp) I am pretty sure are all built within just a few miles of each other in France. So if you fly in to loook at them it's easy enough to make a stop at each of the factories and speak with them all in one trip.

The one issue I have with the RM is they're are plywood/epoxy/metal framed construction. It's not wrong so much as I have no experience with it and it makes me a little nervous.
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Old 17-01-2017, 11:32   #156
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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The Pogo, RM, RPK, and Django (sp) I am pretty sure are all built within just a few miles of each other in France. So if you fly in to loook at them it's easy enough to make a stop at each of the factories and speak with them all in one trip.

The one issue I have with the RM is they're are plywood/epoxy/metal framed construction. It's not wrong so much as I have no experience with it and it makes me a little nervous.
I may just do that, even just to learn about all their manufacturing process would be a great learning experience.

And yeah the plywood and steel are two materials that if ever get moisture penetration will eventually fail, but I am sure as long as the buyer does not drill any holes or does any modification to expose any of it then they have it sealed pretty tight..... I hope hahaha.
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Old 17-01-2017, 11:49   #157
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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The Pogo, RM, RPK, and Django (sp) I am pretty sure are all built within just a few miles of each other in France. So if you fly in to loook at them it's easy enough to make a stop at each of the factories and speak with them all in one trip.

The one issue I have with the RM is they're are plywood/epoxy/metal framed construction. It's not wrong so much as I have no experience with it and it makes me a little nervous.
The RM is also built near the others. I admit that the building is not common but it makes sense. I visited the factory as well as the JPK one.

At the time JPK had not the type of boat I wanted and after having a nice chat with him, looking around at a 11m cruiser racer that was being built, much more adapted to racing than to cruising, I said to him that I was going to try a RM and have a look at the factory and he said to me that they were great boats, very well built. Not the competition at that time, but very nice of him to give me an opinion about another shipyard

This was the JPK I was looking at. Nice boat, nice interior, but not much storage space:


That was almost 15 years ago and at that time RM were not very well known, even if they had already the reputation (among the French) to be very strong and light boats, good fast voyage boats.

Basically they are built with marine plywood that is manually saturated with epoxy with a roller and then can be covered with kevlar or not (it is an option). The keel structure and the keels are steel parts that have no problem interconetcting with plywood and provide big distribution of forces by the hull that has a lot of plywood bulkheads.

The boat is even more odd when we see the building because all interior is in a way a part of the boat structure and provide structural support.

Plywood is a much more stronger material than what most think. I would not be concerned with the boat robustness. The only draw back is the necessity to paint the boat regularly. The boat has a high re-sell value, even boats with 20 years, and it would not be so if the boat give problems with age.




If you want to have a good look at one without coming to Europe there is a 13m one doing charter (with the owner) on the French Caribbean.
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Old 17-01-2017, 13:01   #158
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Now we are getting closer Polux, yes the RM1270 is getting closer to wife's approval haha.
Thanks for the pictures, the aft stateroom model may just work for us
Forgot about this video. Here you have a better look at the boat. it is amazingly BIG for a 12.50ft yacht...and it sails fast, specially on the trade winds:
RM 1270: kantig und schnell
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Old 17-01-2017, 13:09   #159
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Allright, first I'm wrong on this and now I'm right, doesn't make any difference,seems the old rules of thumb are still correct, thanks
It seems I had not explained myself properly. An old heavy design is slow. With a considerable load it is just a little bit more slow, almost an insignificant diference.

A modern planing boat like the Pogo or the JPK fast voyage boats is hugely faster while light. Loaded is hugely faster too but considerably slower then when it was not loaded.

Get it now?
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Old 17-01-2017, 14:04   #160
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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It seems I had not explained myself properly. An old heavy design is slow. With a considerable load it isf just a little bit more slow, almost an insignificant diference.

A modern planing boat like the Pogo or the JPK fast voyage boats is hugely faster while light. Loaded is hugely faster too but considerably slower then when it was not loaded.

Get it now?
You explained yourself perfectly, I simply said that a light displacement hulls speed and performance is effected more by overloading it than a heavier displacement hull and you confirmed it but in your post you seem to have stated . otherwise but your English is not perfect so maybe it was just your choice of words, we can move on.
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Old 17-01-2017, 14:39   #161
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Django is SO cool.

But, GUYS & GIRLS, back on planet earth ... does the shift for the OP has to be THAT radical?

I mean: A step-up from a boat like a Mariner to a nice s/h thing like a small Swan, Baltic or that She36 I mentioned - is it not worth a try?

In my mind, a step-up from a Mariner to a Baltic or a She (or a nice Tartan 3700 or else a HR 372) would be as big as a step-up from any of these boats to a Pogo, Akilaria, Django.

Or is is it like we have to go from one extreme to the other pretending there are no fast happy and easy in-betweens?

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Old 17-01-2017, 16:21   #162
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Django is SO cool.

But, GUYS & GIRLS, back on planet earth ... does the shift for the OP has to be THAT radical?

I mean: A step-up from a boat like a Mariner to a nice s/h thing like a small Swan, Baltic or that She36 I mentioned - is it not worth a try?

In my mind, a step-up from a Mariner to a Baltic or a She (or a nice Tartan 3700 or else a HR 372) would be as big as a step-up from any of these boats to a Pogo, Akilaria, Django.

Or is is it like we have to go from one extreme to the other pretending there are no fast happy and easy in-betweens?

b.

Thanks for bringing that up. Yes I am definitely looking at more mild change but in the Jeanneau type of design, mainly because my wife loves the interior of those yachts, but also a older Swan is also a possibility. And for our lifestyle, we will need at least a 45++ footer.

But I love the speed of the RM boats. After crossing several oceans and being stuck in several storms mainly because averaging 5 knots over several thousand miles puts me in a situation that if I'm out there for several weeks I'm bound to get into some nasty weather which seams to happen to me most of the time hahaha.
Would be nice to narrow the window down conciderably with these faster boats.
But we still need to get out in some of these boats and do some sailing, and just see how they feel and compare the difference between the Jene design verses the RM.
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Old 17-01-2017, 17:11   #163
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Windrush,

There is nothing at all wrong with the Jene designs. Heck I looked at one seriously (made an offer and everything) when we got the Beneteau. But I have had the opportunity to sail some of the new gen boats and it is like night and day.

I was thinking about this earlier, how to describe the difference, and the only way I can put it is to ask if you have ever driven a 1970's Caddy? You know the one, land yacht size, stearing that seems like turning a noodle... a suspension that is somewhat softer than a Berka-Lounger.

Traditional hull designs are like driving that big, non-responsive caddy around. At 20mph everything is fine, sure the steering is sloppy but who cares your going slow, have plenty of time to react, and really, who gets into an accident at 20mph. But take it out on the highway and try doing 70mph and everything changes. The soft suspension, the lack of handeling, it all adds up to a car that feels like it's about to come unglued, it's rocking and swaying, and not at all pleasant. It's doable, but not a lot of fun.

Then jump in a modern Porsche 911 street car, not the race car. At 20mph it's tight, you have massive control, and driving is effortless. But you really aren't paying attention, because it's 20mph. But take it out on the highway and at 70mph she is just purring along, the car is rock stead and everything is in perfect order and control. The car is just loafing along chewing up the miles.

Now to continue the analogy take the two cars to the track and put the hammer down. The Caddy... well I wouldn't drive it much past 70mph even on the track. It just can't handle the speed. The Porsche however keeps accelerating probably until you back off. Sure the car may be able to handle a 185mph track day, but without more experience you likely don't have the reaction time for it, so you take it nice and chill at 110mph until you build some experience.

The Pogo/RM/RPK/Django are very much the Porsche street car, they can putter along at 4-5kn and just go for groceries, but they certainly don't mind doing 8-9 on the highway, but open them up on a track day and watch the miles fly past at 15-20.

The caddy (ready traditional hull design) is fine loafing at 4-5, doesn't mind 8 in flat water, but push her hard in big waves and she is going to start rolling and thrashing around. Pretty quickly you start thinking about reeking downwind just to keep her on her feet.

The new designs however were designed to be stable downwind at high speeds. They just come alive. The steering gets light, the boat flattens out, and you are flying, but without a lot of effort. If anything they just get better behaved as they speed up, and the balanced steering means it becomes trivial to control. This is when you gain options, because you have the speed to skirt or choose your bad weather.

IMOCA's, Opens, the Class 40, are like the Porsche track car. Uncomfortable at any speed, harsh, brutal, no compromises, and capable of performance in a class by itself. But try and go get groceries in one and you are an idiot.


To carry the analogy... I think of my Beneteau as the Honda Sonata of the sea. It's perfectly well behaved on the highway, doesn't have many bad habits if any, and is predictable. Nothing wrong with my Beneteau, but she certainly isnt going to excite anyone with her performance.



.... I think this makes my A-Cat the 150mph go cart. Crazy fun to drive, but completely insane, in a fun way.
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Old 17-01-2017, 17:25   #164
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Polux, on the RM construction notes you mention that it is very unique because the whole interior is part of the structure. I recognize that's this isn't the case in the high production boats but a stick built boats interior is also part of the structure. Every cabinet,every closet, every piece of furniture is tabbed to the hull or deck or both.. one reason they are very strong, like the RM. Nice looking boat by the way, unique construction with plywood in this day and age. Nothing weak about plywood...the British Mosquito bomber was built from plywood and was one of the best performing aircraft in its day.
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Old 17-01-2017, 19:29   #165
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Polux, on the RM construction notes you mention that it is very unique because the whole interior is part of the structure. I recognize that's this isn't the case in the high production boats but a stick built boats interior is also part of the structure. Every cabinet,every closet, every piece of furniture is tabbed to the hull or deck or both.. one reason they are very strong, like the RM. Nice looking boat by the way, unique construction with plywood in this day and age. Nothing weak about plywood...the British Mosquito bomber was built from plywood and was one of the best performing aircraft in its day.
I built my first sailboat way back in the 70s with West System Epoxy and Plywood. Was super strong!
The only wood base material that is stronger is single ply directional layup, where you can position the ply's for the best Linear strength and thickness. Basically just like how we built the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, but using Carbon fiber directional layup instead of wood fiber.
Also with using single ply's the builder can completely saturate the wood, unlike plywood where you can only penetrate the first layer.

I would be interested in what kind of plywood RM uses. I know there is some very high quality plywood now that is pretty much saturated already with resin. I used some of it to repair my cabin roof. Pretty pricey stuff
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