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Old 25-01-2017, 04:32   #211
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

As for the part related to RM boats discussion: I am sorry to point at this fact but it just proves how very much out of sync with the sailing world some of us are.

It is a boatyard that has been around for a while (1989) so ... someone must catch up with the most recent whooping 30 years of what is being built and sailed round the world.

Back in 2004 we met a hand-built (homebrew) plywood boat about 40'. They were half way round the world and their boat looked a match to anything wood, metal or plastic. Aesthetically, a class above any steel boat in that bay.

I have seen at least a dozen RM boats here getting ready to cross the Atlantic. Apparently, French sailors have zero qualms about RM boatyard's ability to build fast and seaworthy craft.

So, boys, girls, open some sailing magazines (they can be very old ones ;-)) browse, think.

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Old 25-01-2017, 04:39   #212
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

And as for whether the world can be cruised comfortably in a 32 footer.

No.

Only in a 70' Oyster.

Just look at anchorages in the West Indies and Polynesia: all boats there are 70' Oysters.

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Old 25-01-2017, 05:09   #213
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Below are the polar diagrams for the Pogo 50 and the X-Yacht 50 layed on top of each other. As you can see at less than 4kn upwind the Pogo gets crushed, but meh, who sails in 4kn of breeze. By 8kn of breeze the Pogo and X-Yacht are pretty much on par, the X is a touch faster whenever as hard on the wind as possible, by crack off even a touch and the Pogo leaps in front.

Any more breeze than that and the boats are so close together it isn't even worth talking about hard onthe wind, but at all wind speed higher than 10knthe Pogo's vmg is higher upwind though it may not be pointing quite as well. Though generally the Pogo could slow down to the speed of the X and point the same. The trick is you want to keep the bow down to plane upwind. you maybe pointing lower,but upwind vmg is higher. It's a different way of thinking, but it works.

How to divide these designs is tricky, but for some shorthand take a look at the bow. The rounder the hull is forward of the keel the more uncomfortable and pounding the boat will be upwind and the faster off the wind. The rounder the stern is longer it will stay in displacement mode and harder it will be to get it on a plane.
Great input! thanks Stumble
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Old 25-01-2017, 05:44   #214
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Also, look beyond what the hull and the sails could deliver on paper.

How many forestays? Are all fore sails furled? What sort of kites is standard? Will she go on the plane easily or just sail fast without surfing?

Two designs that have the same polars may actually be worlds apart when one wants to sail fast, safe and or single-handed.

One is not sailing a set of polars but a real boat with sail changes, deck-work, AP handling (or not) the speed and the seas and all the other factors.

Look for good polars as much as you are looking for easy handling and easy sailing characteristics, twice so if you want to sail fast.

Small errors from boat handling bite twice as much when you are going fast.

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Old 25-01-2017, 06:02   #215
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Let me off some comments. First thanks to Polux for presenting all these new boat designs. I don't see them on the water where I now sail in Southern NE... don't go to boat shows or read mags anymore... and I sail a fine boat I got 32 years ago mostly now as weekend cruiser.... though I did do 10's of thousands of offshore work and lived aboard this boat in the Caribe... My only "complaint" was that I could do with a bit more space below despite having more on the 36s than most boats even 4 feet larger.

Not having seen these "sled" up close and certainly not having sailed one I just don't know what the experience would be like.

I don't care for a wet boat. I do prefer a large comfy cockpit... I don't helm much but I like the option to sit on either side... or behind and stand when I do. Comfort makes the experience enjoyable... Fun is less important especially at my age.

Comfort is not only a large accommodation plan below and in the cockpit... but also open decks, hand holds, lines led aft (I single and short hand)... as little spray hitting the cockpit... a sea kindly motion... sail control lines that are handy...

Speed is rarely what sailors are about... It's a slow way to go.... and so we want to always go a bit faster tweaking and trimming and so forth. Tweaking fun.. faster is more fun than slower. I look at the speeds of these amazing boats and they are almost terrifyingly fast. God forbid someone falls over... they'd be gone and out of sight before you realized... And so that means harness always... not a bad idea... but something we do when the conditions call for it... and most of our sailing at hull speed in moderate conditions don't call for it. I would image these sleds in those conditions hitting 15 knots.

Second as an architect I have no problem with new aesthetic sensibilities. And certainly welcome new technologies which make sailboats safer, faster, more reliable.

Interior design is a personal choice and our comfort zone for aesthetics is driven by history and our past experiences... it's our benchmark and for many it represents a comfort level. The species of wood is less important to me than the craftsmanship and the joinery details. Of course cruisers need stowage and never can have enough. More light is welcome... except in the tropics when we want to escape the broiling light of th sun.

A boat as a home that cruises is a huge project and it takes lots of time to make it a home and one suitable for the mission. It's kinda hard to do this over and over again.... but many sailors do. I liked taking a ready to sail new boat and making it into mine, unique and better. It's a never ending and enjoyable part of cruising and boat owning for me. I don't see much opportunity to "play" with design in these new boats... but I have tried... They look like rental Ferrari's kinds...

Whatever works for you. You can't stop progress... and these designs ARE progress.
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Old 25-01-2017, 08:44   #216
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Below are the polar diagrams for the Pogo 50 and the X-Yacht 50 layed on top of each other. As you can see at less than 4kn upwind the Pogo gets crushed, but meh, who sails in 4kn of breeze. By 8kn of breeze the Pogo and X-Yacht are pretty much on par, the X is a touch faster whenever as hard on the wind as possible, by crack off even a touch and the Pogo leaps in front.
Thanks for answering that question so well! Very much appreciate both the Polars and the design discussion regarding the rounding of the hull. Also appreciate the racey answer of it's not the angle, it's the VMG

One more question about upwind work: at what level of wave action does planing ability stop mattering? I assume at some point the efficiency loss from pitch up and down waves and needing to punch through them will reduce any boat to displacement work, even when cracking off. On the Chesapeake where I am now, it's not a concern, but crossing the Tongue in the Bahamas from the berries to the Abacos I definitely took a pounding in my 28 footer going upwind, and would think that any hull would have difficulty punching through that. Or, if you were to bear off to get a more obtuse angle to the waves, could you continue your planing?

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Old 25-01-2017, 09:12   #217
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

In the right conditions planing upwind would not only be possible but reasonably comfortable. If your out on the open ocean in 20-25 knots I really don't care what you do with a 32 foot boat it's not going to be comfortable sailing hard on the wind. The flat bottom boats slam in larger waves, you can foot off which is a good idea but you should also slow down so that you can roll over the waves. These more modern hulls that plane easily certainly can go upwind ok but they usually do so at greater heel angles (Pogo) in order to reduce the wetted surface but upwind sailing is not what they were really designed for, they do their best work off the wind which fortunately is the most common expected in trade wind sailing. The high production boats are different, their keels are not as deep and effective and they use their wide beams to add stability so they are best sailed flatter, no more than 15 degrees on average.
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Old 25-01-2017, 09:33   #218
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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In the right conditions planing upwind would not only be possible but reasonably comfortable. If your out on the open ocean in 20-25 knots I really don't care what you do with a 32 foot boat it's not going to be comfortable sailing hard on the wind. The flat bottom boats slam in larger waves, you can foot off which is a good idea but you should also slow down so that you can roll over the waves. These more modern hulls that plane easily certainly can go upwind ok but they usually do so at greater heel angles (Pogo) in order to reduce the wetted surface but upwind sailing is not what they were really designed for, they do their best work off the wind which fortunately is the most common expected in trade wind sailing. The high production boats are different, their keels are not as deep and effective and they use their wide beams to add stability so they are best sailed flatter, no more than 15 degrees on average.
Quite agree, lets see, the Pogo is not designed to sail to weather under some conditions without a pain in the neck, me believe the quick aceleration and speed upwind could be ok until seas are a isue , is right there where this hulls forms stop going fast and pound and slam , i mean i can imagine this boats need a lot of speed to going to rough upwind work with some level of confort and that mean more sail área up, also i strong believe that huge beam play havock upwind creating a nasty drag to cut through the waves,,, im sure the polars in a previous post could be right but quite frankly in flat conditions , overall this kind of boats suffer with a mere 2,5 seas crashing in the bow,,, also im sure this kind of hulls forms can go faster upwind than any other type of hull form paying a hig Price in pounding and discomfort.. also the pogo cant sail really well DW with the main , they have a huge angle factor in the sweep back spreaders , spinnakers are a really need it onboard , most likely they are optimized for beam reach and reaching sailing points... definitely they are a big compromise....
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Old 25-01-2017, 09:55   #219
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

There is no design feature on a sailboat considered a plus which does not also have a corresponding negative. When you consider that a design feature is "better" the question is "better for what". This is what makes sailboat design so interesting - it is the interplay of various design features and how well they are combined to achieve a particular goal. My point is that very different boats can be good for different things. And as we all have different goals for our ideal boat then different design features can be better for our particular application.

My point in writing this is suggest that instead of a blanket consideration that the current high tech race boat design is "best" that one ask "best for what?". And consider what are the negative factors which invariably accompany the positives? The study of design trade offs is a very interesting one.

I come from a background designing and using a variety of high performance racing machinery, mostly racing motorcycles but also cars and boats. I'll guarantee that some hands on experience with real racing machines will remove any idea that they are the best thing for non-racing use. Like anything else, they are built for a specific application. So define what it is you really want, then study boat design enough to put together a good combination of features/materials for your use.

Plywood, by the way, can be a very good boat building material. It is possible to produce a very efficient, lightweight structure with it. And it is a good material for one off construction. Like any other material, good design with it requires detailed knowledge of properties and construction technique.

There are many texts on boat design out there. I'll refer you to a few that I've found valuable: "Boat Strength" and "The Nature of Boats" by Dave Gerr, "Cruisers Encyclopedia" by Steve Dashew, "Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor" and "Sail Performance" by Marchaj.

Good luck with your project.
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Old 25-01-2017, 09:55   #220
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Quite agree, lets see, the Pogo is not designed to sail to weather under some conditions without a pain in the neck, me believe the quick aceleration and speed upwind could be ok until seas are a isue , is right there where this hulls forms stop going fast and pound and slam , i mean i can imagine this boats need a lot of speed to going to rough upwind work with some level of confort and that mean more sail área up, also i strong believe that huge beam play havock upwind creating a nasty drag to cut through the waves,,, im sure the polars in a previous post could be right but quite frankly in flat conditions , overall this kind of boats suffer with a mere 2,5 seas crashing in the bow,,, also im sure this kind of hulls forms can go faster upwind than any other type of hull form paying a hig Price in pounding and discomfort.. also the pogo cant sail really well DW with the main , they have a huge angle factor in the sweep back spreaders , spinnakers are a really need it onboard , most likely they are optimized for beam reach and reaching sailing points... definitely they are a big compromise....
One thing is for sure: you know very little about this boat and the way it sails

That's a good thing you don't want one, otherwise you would have to wait 2 years.
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Old 25-01-2017, 10:01   #221
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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One thing is for sure: you know very little about this boat and the way it sails

That's a good thing you don't want one, otherwise you would have to wait 2 years.
Not so fast boy, we test sail a pogo with new rigging 2 weeks agoo around Marigot SXM in a breeze,, third pogo we have in our dock in the last 3 years, probably i know more of this boats than you, wana see some pics with me at the bosun chair???
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Old 25-01-2017, 10:03   #222
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Thanks for answering that question so well! Very much appreciate both the Polars and the design discussion regarding the rounding of the hull. Also appreciate the racey answer of it's not the angle, it's the VMG

One more question about upwind work: at what level of wave action does planing ability stop mattering? I assume at some point the efficiency loss from pitch up and down waves and needing to punch through them will reduce any boat to displacement work, even when cracking off. On the Chesapeake where I am now, it's not a concern, but crossing the Tongue in the Bahamas from the berries to the Abacos I definitely took a pounding in my 28 footer going upwind, and would think that any hull would have difficulty punching through that. Or, if you were to bear off to get a more obtuse angle to the waves, could you continue your planing?

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I haven't sails a Pogo, my experience on this class of boats are from either more race versions like the Open 40 (now defunct), or so my 'knowledge' is second hand though second hand from some very experienced people.

What you have to realize is that there are two types of wide beam boats. Ones like my Beneteau just roll over there is no chine, and the underwater profile stays large at any reasonable amount of heel. So it's sticky upwind and the wetted surface stays high. My Waterline beam stays about the same.

The Pogo and its ilk are radically different. The hard chine, and flat bottom mean when they heel over the entire windward side of the boat comes out of the water. Much like a catamaran flying a hull their drag drops off a cliff and the whole boat is running on just the narrow immersed edge of the leeward side. What this means for upwind sailing is that the running surface is a long, narrow, hull with minimal wetted surface. Which is pretty much the ideal hard on the wind hull profile for big waves.

At what point do the waves force you to fall off.... depends on you. The boats can take far more than I would ever want to deal with. Even on a traditional boat being hard on the wind sucks so much most cruisers I know fall off to about 45 degrees for comfort no matter what boat they are on. Sure you can harden up and just keep bashing away upwind, but most people would rather take a more comfortable angle even if it isn't quite as fast. The Pogo however doesn't just give you a more comfortable ride but also starts building lots of speed. So you don't even have to feel bad about falling off, the vmg may suffer a touch, but probably not much, and the extra speed allows you more control over where to crest waves if you are actively driving.

All that being said, these are not ever going to be great upwind boats. The Pogo's fine entry and deep forefoot means it won't bast too badly, but it still has a big wide transom and there will be wave slap. The wide trimming angles on the jib mean it will always feel like you are footing (and you are).

In other words if you made me choose a boat just to bash 1,000nm upwind on it wouldn't be the Pogo, it would look like the Dashew's Beowulf. As long as you can handle, and as narrow as you can stomach with a very deep bulb. But at any other point of sail including a jib reach in big waves I would rather the Pogo's of the world.

To finish off, this is part of a review from a Pogo 12.50 owner discussing his experience.

“Gentlemen do not sail upwind”. We don’t like it either but of course sometimes we have to. Let me be clear: sailing the 12.50 close hauled is not rewarding. Certainly not in choppy seas, as we frequently encounter in strong wind against tide conditions in these shallow waters. With a good sail trim, the boat will point up to 33° of the apparent wind while maintaining a correct speed. You will not need 10 knots of wind to reach 6 knots. But you don’t want to try that in choppy seas, because the lack of inertia and the flat bow sections will make the boat slam. Slow and very uncomfortable.

So bearing down and easing the sheets a little is the way to generate sufficient power to get through. This gives very frustrating tacking angles on the chart plotter track, but the much better speed results in a quite satisfying VMG. So you end up in port together with most other performance cruisers of the same size, but after having sailed some more distance. The common statement that this kind of boats cannot perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed.

One time we gave up, against 2 meter but very steep waves and 30 knots of wind (with a counter current). Not because of the boat’s performance, it was just the crew that decided this was no fun at all. So we turned our back and took a broad reach at an average of 15 knots, even without taking out the two reefs or replacing the staysail with the solent. Big smiles returned on all faces and if it weren't for the trip back, we would probably have gone all the way up to Scandinavia.
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Old 25-01-2017, 13:12   #223
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Anyone sailed an RM upwind in any kind of swell for at least a couple days who can tell us how it was in terms of comfort, especially in terms of sleeping?
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Old 25-01-2017, 13:39   #224
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Anyone sailed an RM upwind in any kind of swell for at least a couple days who can tell us how it was in terms of comfort, especially in terms of sleeping?
No idea, there is few cases of Structural problems in the RM 1050 and the RM 1200 , in fact the structural problems in the RM 1200 are well know by the french folks , guess they dont try to much upwind work , interesting Reading in the french RM fórum.....
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Old 25-01-2017, 15:21   #225
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Thanks for the additional thoughts on upwind in sea conditions. As someone who doesn't really ever want to have a boat longer than 36', I appreciate that my options will never be the best choice for upwind work. One of my concerns with these performance cruisers is that they are so light (the Pogo 30 displacement is 2/3 that of my Pearson 28 ) that waves would tend to slap them around and they might lack the inertia to punch through and so get stalled. They may make up for it by having much less wetted surface to push against - polux showed an earlier video of a Pogo seeming to just float above a wave that was starting to break. Of course with coastal cruising, I imagine one will be choosing their upwind days.

I guess the only thing left to do is try one on charter now that the mechanics and theory are cleared thanks to you all!

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