Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-12-2016, 20:03   #31
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

The reputation this style of boat has for slamming upwind really comes from people who have some experience with them inshore but minimal amount offshore. Inshore with short steep chop where you are being forced to hold the bow as high to the wind as possible is just about the worst case scenario for these designs. But if you have the luxury of taking one off shore things change.

1) because you no longer are forced to fight for tacking angles you can ease the bow down to tacking thru about 100 degrees. This does a few things. First it heels the boat over and gets the windward side of the transom out of the water. So all you are sailing on is a very long, thin leeward hull profile. Which is ideal for upwind speeds.

2) The extra power means you can drive over the waves not into them and maintain a high average speed. This takes a good helmsman or a good autopilot, ever will work. But you have to keep the windward hull flying.

All in all the ideal heel angle is probably about the same as the old IOR battlewagons, but you do it with more speed and more control.

Of course when you crack off the wind to a reach the whole game changes.


Below is a picture of a Pogo 12.50 headed upwind, not the amount of heel she carries and how little of the transom is actually wet. Because there is so little rounding to her underbody that's pretty much how the rest of her hull look like, just the port edge is wet and the rest of the hull is kept dry.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0461.JPG
Views:	152
Size:	120.5 KB
ID:	138733  
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2016, 20:36   #32
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

The Pogo, even if not an optimized upwind boat only does not go so well upwind if we compare it with other performance boats more upwind optimized.

If compared with main market cruiser boats the Pogo will make a considerably better VMG upwind, not going so close the wind but a bit more off, with a much bigger speed. Going not so close to the wind also contributes for the boat not pounding. If we compare it with an old heavy cruising full keeler than the Pogo upwind performance will be stellar.

But it is worth to point out that most modern performance cruisers with a very good upwind performance, being less beamy then the Pogo, have also very large transoms due to having the beam pulled back.

Two performance cruisers that last year had a great performance on the Sydney Hobart, a race that don't favor boats like the Pogo and favors performance boats with a very good upwind performance, the A13 and the JPK 1080:




Or one less pointed as a cruiser-racer and more of a cruiser, the Solaris 37:
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2016, 23:22   #33
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Back in Northern California working on the Ranch
Boat: Pearson 365 Sloop Westsail 28 and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 9,885
Images: 5
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Now SV Windrush...Didn't your earlier avatar/bio list one of your boats as a Rosborough 60 some odd foot vessel? If I'm right, what happened to that? That should answer the question for you.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 00:37   #34
Registered User
 
SV Windrush II's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Somewhere in the Philippines
Boat: Mariner 40 Ketch
Posts: 527
Images: 18
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Now SV Windrush...Didn't your earlier avatar/bio list one of your boats as a Rosborough 60 some odd foot vessel? If I'm right, what happened to that? That should answer the question for you.
Yes that's a very heavy wooden privateer that is not what I have in mind hahaha.

I am still working on it but will probably sell it or give it away. She is in need of a lot of work and even if it was completed it's not what I am looking for.
Needless to say, after building and maintaining wooden boats all my life, it's time I do the switch to fiberglass.

The main problem with the Rosborough boats is they are really poorly constructed and would not take one across any ocean. Would be fine as a Puget Sound cruiser
__________________
Fair Winds to all
SV Windrush II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 01:16   #35
Registered User
 
SV Windrush II's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Somewhere in the Philippines
Boat: Mariner 40 Ketch
Posts: 527
Images: 18
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Well so far out of all the yachts mentioned above, I like the Solaris 53 the best. The problem is the only used one I found for sale is $200k over my budget.
So looks like I need to settle for a older generation (10-15 years old) to make it affordable for me and be happy with 8-10 knot max speeds which is ok with me.

As far as single handed sailing, it is possible now with all the electric winches and furrling systems that usually come with these boats. But of course I would prefer a crew
__________________
Fair Winds to all
SV Windrush II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 02:42   #36
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
Well so far out of all the yachts mentioned above, I like the Solaris 53 the best. The problem is the only used one I found for sale is $200k over my budget.
So looks like I need to settle for a older generation (10-15 years old) to make it affordable for me and be happy with 8-10 knot max speeds which is ok with me.

As far as single handed sailing, it is possible now with all the electric winches and furrling systems that usually come with these boats. But of course I would prefer a crew
I am not sure what you need for accommodations, but there is a Contour 50 trimaran in Hawaii for sale right now. If your willing to sail it back it probably would go for a discount due to location.

Or you could always look for a Hammerhead or Juniper. If those things ever come up for sale.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 05:07   #37
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
Well so far out of all the yachts mentioned above, I like the Solaris 53 the best. The problem is the only used one I found for sale is $200k over my budget.
So looks like I need to settle for a older generation (10-15 years old) to make it affordable for me and be happy with 8-10 knot max speeds which is ok with me.

As far as single handed sailing, it is possible now with all the electric winches and furrling systems that usually come with these boats. But of course I would prefer a crew
Have an eye on these aluminium boats, probably among the fastest type of cruising boat with 20 years (Levrier des mers/ cigale).



FINN – Alubat Levrier 14
LEVRIER DES MERS 14 M-1989
Lévrier De Mer 16 "Azawakh"
The problem is that even if they are not well known by most the ones that know them well are still many for the ones available on the 2nd hand market.
Voilier LEGUEN HEMEDY - LE LEVRIER DES MERS - Annonce de voilier d?occasion à vendre proposée par le courtier en bateaux XBOAT
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 07:57   #38
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

And by that price regarding your program and regarding having a strong and relatively fast boat you will have difficulty finding better than this:
https://sailingbluewatersblog.wordpress.com/
A boat that belongs to a well known member of this forum that is going to sell it to buy an over million dollar boat. The boat seems to be in great shape.
https://sailingbluewatersblog.wordpress.com/
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 09:47   #39
Registered User
 
SV Windrush II's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Somewhere in the Philippines
Boat: Mariner 40 Ketch
Posts: 527
Images: 18
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
And by that price regarding your program and regarding having a strong and relatively fast boat you will have difficulty finding better than this:
https://sailingbluewatersblog.wordpress.com/
A boat that belongs to a well known member of this forum that is going to sell it to buy an over million dollar boat. The boat seems to be in great shape.
https://sailingbluewatersblog.wordpress.com/
That's a great boat. I definitely will put that on my prospect list.

Here is another one I really like. Elan 514

2008 Elan 514 IMPRESSION Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
__________________
Fair Winds to all
SV Windrush II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 10:55   #40
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: TRT 1200
Posts: 6,509
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I am not sure what you need for accommodations, but there is a Contour 50 trimaran in Hawaii for sale right now. If your willing to sail it back it probably would go for a discount due to location.



Or you could always look for a Hammerhead or Juniper. If those things ever come up for sale.

Two Junipers for sale!
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989...s#.WGfssss8KhA
http://www.multihullcompany.com/Trim..._WHITE/JUNIPER
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 11:47   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,180
Images: 3
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Sir, your appreciation for many a different boats of differing age, value, pedigree, quality of built, performance under sail..is surprising.
I withdraw from following this thread. Kind Regards
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 17:20   #42
Registered User
 
first wind's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Chesapeake bay area
Boat: 1971 cal 27
Posts: 427
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
The reason why I want to open this discussion is because this next year we want to get into a larger boat that we can do some chartering, but also good performance. My wife does not like to sail with me offshore because even in 10 knot winds she gets scared. So keep in mind I would like to at least single-hand sail at times when I cannot find a crew.

My mariner 40 has been a great boat for me and have sailed alone across the pacific through dead calm to 40 knot winds.
Being an old William Garden full keel design, it is a very forgiving sailor but even at 25 knot winds on a broad reach, I m lucky to get 7.5 knots out of it, of course that's not including surfing speeds.
Also my main issue with it is windward sailing which it does not like.

With that said, when I upsize to a larger boat, I would like it to be much better going to windward, but kind of leery of the modern sleds with wide sterns, and dual rudders to keep the helm in control.

Where is the happy medium of performance and sailing to weather, comfort, spacious interior, but not a slug either? Can a performance cruiser of 60' easily sail at 12-14 knots in good conditions?

So far I have been looking at 1980s Swan 54, French built Atlantic 60, Tayana 55, etc.

Or should I go crazy and get an old Maxi and convert it to a cruiser? considering all the cost of refitting a racer to a cruiser and is sailing a racing sled as a cruiser a bad Idea?

I know we all have our own opinions and I am ready to read them all so don't be shy.

Thanks
wow. you are trying to start the war to end all wars. lol. you just can't ask questions like that in a sailing blog.
__________________
we go wherever we want to go. that's what a ship is, you know. it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. that's what a ship needs. but what a ship is...really is...is freedom---captain jack sparrow
first wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 18:20   #43
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
That's a great boat. I definitely will put that on my prospect list.

Here is another one I really like. Elan 514

2008 Elan 514 IMPRESSION Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
Nice boat and at a good price. A Ex charter boat probably and the good price has to do with that and with having the VAT not paid, that you don't need to pay. but I would say that for extensive sailing and to live aboard the aluminium one is a better choice.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 18:41   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,921
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
That's a great boat. I definitely will put that on my prospect list.

Here is another one I really like. Elan 514

2008 Elan 514 IMPRESSION Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
Who ever coined the phrase "beds and heads" must have been aboard this boat , not that practical a layout for cruising, In my opinion, nice looking though. R
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2016, 18:59   #45
Registered User
 
SV Windrush II's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Somewhere in the Philippines
Boat: Mariner 40 Ketch
Posts: 527
Images: 18
Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Who ever coined the phrase "beds and heads" must have been aboard this boat , not that practical a layout for cruising, In my opinion, nice looking though. R

Yeah, I think a 3 cabin layout would be plenty for its size, but this boat is designed for chartering, not necessarily for cruising. I would have to do some refitting, which I always have to do anyway no matter what boat I get.

for the price tag of $150k I would have enough money left over to do just about whatever I want to it
__________________
Fair Winds to all
SV Windrush II is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two waterdog Monohull Sailboats 30 10-03-2016 02:45
For Sale: Modern classic Mustang 45 pdechateau Classifieds Archive 2 04-11-2014 06:57
Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us.... Lagoon4us General Sailing Forum 72 29-10-2012 01:11

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.