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Old 24-02-2020, 20:44   #76
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

I found a 52 Azimut same age of my vessel with 1200 HP for just $100k. So my view is cheap used powerboats are also killing off new sailboat market.

The cost to custom build a vessel like mine is now is many many many times that cost.

Further many new sailboats are now built in places like Thailand and Vietnam. These manufacturers are not going to be at boat shows.
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Old 24-02-2020, 21:06   #77
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Hi, welcome, and thanks for your input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokedGouda View Post
As a millennial, better off than most but still dealing with the economic realities of our generation, the decline in sailing, beyond all of the cultural factors is pretty simple math. Let me break it down for you(all estimates/prices based in Florida, where I live):

Let's say I am frugal and bought used 80s era Catalina 30 financed for $10,000, not extravagant, but a good starter for someone in their late 20's early 30's.

Recurring Fixed Monthly costs:
Payment: $300
Wet slip: $300 minimum if I want to be anywhere remotely interesting
Insurance: $20
Boat Tow US: $12

Yearly Maintenence:
Haulout + bottom paint: $800

Projects/Improvements:
$1500 a year on stuff that a 30 year old boat is going to need

Yearly/monthly cost:
$9,884y/$823.66 a month
... a few points:
  • No lender is likely to directly finance an old boat. So you'd have to take out a loan aganst some other collateral. Also, most here would advise against that; since a boat is a discretionary and depreciating asset, you really should be paying cash.
  • You're young; you should be doing your own bottom paint.
So... respectfully, no, a young person shouldn't be laying out that sort of money for a toy, while there are other more pressing needs in their life.

Quote:
The reason you only see new boats that are absurdly expensive is that the fixed costs of boating are too high, and the people who can afford those costs without flinching can also afford a $500,000 boat. Because why would I spend $200,000 on a 30ft cruiser when I can spend $500,000 on a 40 ft cruiser. It's only another $100 a month in slip fees so what the hell.

Basically, as a millennial, if I want own a sailboat I have to dedicate ALL of my "entertainment" budget to a single activity that most of my friends don't know anything about and probably won't want to do more than once or twice a year.

Now, I am obsessed with sailing, and I'll probably end up taking that plunge at some point soon, but for those who aren't pathologically obsessed? This is a very hard sell.

Instead of lamenting the death of sailing you should be lamenting the death of middle class discretionary income.
Well, most of my late-boomer peers and I couldn't have afforded a 30' sailboat either, at your age.

Here's the good news. Buy a smaller trailerable boat with cash (roughly $2 to $4k), and sail the bottom off of it. All the expenses you list drop by an order of magnitude. All the fun, less than 1/10th the price.

We are looking for a larger boat, but we haven't yet got the free time to do some real cruising. So we're going into season 14 with a 19' ft boat and we still love it to bits, daysail a lot, and still manage a few to several nights aboard each year, doing a short cruise or two.
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Old 24-02-2020, 21:56   #78
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

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Originally Posted by DeValency View Post
So, maybe better to travel a little from Helsinki to Dusseldorf every January to visit Boot - a real sailboats show (with tons of motor too).
We did that too

Quote:
But this wouldn’t change the popularity facts.
Yes, indeed, and the trend I think was visible in Helsinki.

Quote:
As for me, my happiest moment on the water is the engine turn off.
Yes, same here. Well, actually it's also a 'happiest moment' the first minute after having left the harbour, when the journey begins.
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Old 24-02-2020, 22:06   #79
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

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Originally Posted by cygnus View Post
Interesting, I have been going to the Miami boatshow for the last 12 years and found the same exact thing. The booths for Sailboats has dwindled to an area approx. 35 ft x 80 ft. Their was a handfull of Sailboats [ monohulls] in the NE corner outside. There were quite a few large Cats though. My opinion is the old time sailors are starting to die off, sad to say. Their are very few young people who want to sail. The big percentage of young people is power boats. I am 73 and most of my friends are 30- 50 yrs old. They say sailing is too slow for them. So....times are changing, time never stands still. Fair Winds
This is, of course, how life goes.

One obvious big trend that might push young people towards sailing/cruising is climate change.

Fair winds!
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Old 24-02-2020, 22:27   #80
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarian View Post
The USA is not the centre of the World nor boating , were do people get their data from or as usual the experts that know everything , sometimes a little leg work , research and fore though dispels these rumours that are always abundant on CF, every sailor knows best

https://www.berthon.co.uk/yacht-sale...ening-remarks/
Maybe not the Center but ! There are 5 times more clients after a boat in USA or Canada than Europe, that’s why boats sell for more on this side of the pond
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Old 25-02-2020, 01:12   #81
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by slug View Post
It’s the same everywhere

I was just talking to a sailmaker that I have known for 40 years

Very few new clients
I am not surprised. It's economics.

I have owned boats for the past 15 years. And not once bought a brand new sail. With the cost of new set for my boat in the $10s of thousands why would I, when the boat is now valued probably less then that.

If the price of new set drops into a few thousands, definitely under $5K, I would consider. Under $3K most likely. I search locally and periodically find barely used sails for a few $100s and most are good for more than 3-5 seasons.
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Old 25-02-2020, 02:08   #82
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
You'd think that a simple yet modern and good-sailing 25' weekender/beer-can racer could be made and sold for USD$30k ... but it would require the economies of scale to get down to that price, I imagine.

I am surprised that there's no boats being made in large quantities from the Far East.

A mast is a pretty fancy extrusion. If there was a new high-volume boat manufacturer ordering masts by the hundreds, the price for those would drop.
Isn't that why Mcgregor made a killing and sold a shed full with their small cheap yachts with functional light interiors?

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Old 25-02-2020, 02:13   #83
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I am not surprised. It's economics.

I have owned boats for the past 15 years. And not once bought a brand new sail. With the cost of new set for my boat in the $10s of thousands why would I, when the boat is now valued probably less then that.

If the price of new set drops into a few thousands, definitely under $5K, I would consider. Under $3K most likely. I search locally and periodically find barely used sails for a few $100s and most are good for more than 3-5 seasons.
How big is the boat? sometimes I thank the lord we have a 31ft yacht. The Genoa in 2012 and main in 2018 totaled £2300 and that was for a better quality cloth not the cheap stuff. Phew
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Old 25-02-2020, 03:35   #84
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

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How big is the boat? sometimes I thank the lord we have a 31ft yacht. The Genoa in 2012 and main in 2018 totaled £2300 and that was for a better quality cloth not the cheap stuff. Phew
36'. 10 years ago, when I first priced getting new sails, a set of 4 or 5 regular dacron ones would have been around $20K and higher. Laminated ones way more.

Over the years I picked up about half dozen decent used sails for under $1,000 total. At 3 to 5 seasons per sail they should last me until I old-age switch to a trawler.
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Old 26-02-2020, 12:23   #85
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

We found that very same thing just last week at the New England Boat Show in Boston, Massachusetts. Only four sailboats in one corner. The rest of the boats were power boats, but mostly the fresh-water pontoon boats. I don't know if boaters are scared of the sharks in New England ocean waters, or just want the simplicity of a party boat on a lake. We will not return to that Boat Show, but love going to the Newport Boat Show with the boats in the water. Plenty of sailboats there.

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Old 26-02-2020, 12:38   #86
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

I can report that the Miami international boat show was absolutely packed with sailboats. There were some great ones there. There were more sailing Catamarans than I could even go on in one day. I do use the term sailing Catamaran loosely. Ha ha ha. Some of them were absolute tanks.

But there were also a couple of nice gems there.

They were so many Catamarans to see, which is why I was there, that I didn’t even set foot on a monohull
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Old 26-02-2020, 12:52   #87
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

It's in the equation: (C/F-unit)/T

Cost per Fun Unit divided by time.
It's not just sailing...as mentioned:
Motorcycles (no air conditioning, get rained on, no flat panel toy ala Tesla)
Scuba - C-FUT throws this in the wind
and on and on...
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Old 26-02-2020, 12:56   #88
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I am not surprised. It's economics.

I have owned boats for the past 15 years. And not once bought a brand new sail. With the cost of new set for my boat in the $10s of thousands why would I, when the boat is now valued probably less then that.

If the price of new set drops into a few thousands, definitely under $5K, I would consider. Under $3K most likely. I search locally and periodically find barely used sails for a few $100s and most are good for more than 3-5 seasons.
Over the years I have bought about 11 sails from various China companies and now Sri Lanka companies are building a lot (yes, this is a lot of sails, but we have cruised for 24 years and circumnavigated and we race a lot, so we go through sails).

Prices are dramatically less than sails from a local loft (or a national loft) but the service is lacking. Locally sold sails will be backed by the service and warranty of the local or national loft. But they will cost more. You are buying service and in some cases better quality.

Some price examples: My Carbon fiber membrane mainsail for my 43' sloop was $5000. It is a georgous sail, now three years old and still perfect. A comparable sail from a national loft would have been well over $10,000. My Dacron cruising main was $2200 delivered, and last year I bought a Dacron 100% jib, in a custom sausage bag, and a 1.5oz nylon reaching spinnaker, plus two extra spinnaker turtles, both sails and the bags, delivered to the West Coast, for $2500. These Dacron sails constitute a "set" form my boat and it is less than $5000.

Those are great prices but the onus is on you to get the measurements and specs right and take care of minor service issues. I had one major problem on one mainsail and the factory paid to have it returned to China and they replaced it, at a prorated price.

I have also bought used sails at great savings, but they don't always last long.

Yes, the economics of sailboat ownership is bad, no way totally to get around it, but by taking a lot of the responsibility on yourself you can keep it under control. People with a lot of money to spend won't want to do it, but others of us have little choice unless we want to get out of boating.

By buying a used boat you can further reduce the overall cost.
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Old 26-02-2020, 13:15   #89
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
There are a lot of things about sailing which I cherish, but the best time of every sailing trip is when we shut off the motor, about 100mt out of the marina.

I've done a lot of powerboating, for about 30 years, but there is nothing like the silence of a sailboat heeling to a nice breeze and sailing swiftly to windward. I crave that.
The most common comment I get from anyone who goes sailing with us is when the engine is shut down and the boat carries on at the same pace in comparative silence. “Wow, that’s amazing!” Even people who sail with us often.

And I agree.

But it is true even in NZ which has always been a sailing centre, marinas are more and more being populated by motor launches than sailing boats. And to be fair, when the prospect of passage-making up to the South Pacific ends due to my reducing ability, I will migrate to a motor boat - see no continued purpose in a small sailboat for local boating.
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:44   #90
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Re: Where are the sailboats?!

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Originally Posted by CassidyNZ View Post
...And to be fair, when the prospect of passage-making up to the South Pacific ends due to my reducing ability, I will migrate to a motor boat - see no continued purpose in a small sailboat for local boating.
CassidytNZ, I hear you, but we are not all the same.

We HAVE decided to give up ocean passages (at least more than of a few days) but I am not willing to give up the feeling of sailing a nice boat in a nice breeze.

So we remain cruisers, and liveaboards, and we sail 25-35 times a year, and we will do so until we no longer can. Today, on our 43' liveaboard sloop, we completed a short race in a moderate breeze (16kt true), went fast for a couple of hours, practiced some spinnaker work with our new crew members, messed up a couple but learned some things, got second place and now we'll have a nice dinner aboard, pack the kite tomorrow, and look forward to next week (we are in our early 70's).

Our boat is a race boat so it is really easy to sail, even for old farts. So we can keep doing it.

When we can't? Maybe an old folks home.
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