Where are the sailboats?!

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I just returned from the Helsinki International Boat Show ("The biggest boating event in the Northern Europe", they say)

The exhibitors were spread out over two floors and a number of huge halls but there where near to no sailboats there!

A huge number of different species of motor boats, equipment, clothes, other marine stuff... but just three cruising sailboats (Hanse 348, Oceanis 30.1, Oceanis 38.1), tucked away into a corner of one of the halls.

I chatted with one person to confirm my memories of previous shows, and he did agree with me: the number of sailboats has decreased dramatically over the years.

On this forum, on the other hand, people seem to say that sailing in itself is not declining at all. So what's going on here?

Articles I've read, going as far back as 2015, has shown the younger generation are not buying or as active in sailing. Seems to be a similar trend in motorcycles and why Harley is on a downward spiral.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by JBsurfin

Articles I've read, going as far back as 2015, has shown the younger generation are not buying or as active in sailing. Seems to be a similar trend in motorcycles and why Harley is on a downward spiral.

Like the sailboat industry the motorcycle industry is pricing themselves out of business, Royal Enfield on the other hand makes good quality motorcycles at far lower prices and is gaining market share world wide. These companies need to rethink their business models or they are going away, jmo.

Fair winds,

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by JBsurfin

Articles I've read, going as far back as 2015, has shown the younger generation are not buying or as active in sailing. Seems to be a similar trend in motorcycles and why Harley is on a downward spiral.

Like the sailboat industry the motorcycle industry is pricing themselves out of business, Royal Enfield on the other hand makes good quality motorcycles at far lower prices and is gaining market share world wide. These companies need to rethink their business models or they are going away, jmo.

Fair winds,

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by tarian

The USA is not the centre of the World nor boating , were do people get their data from or as usual the experts that know everything , sometimes a little leg work , research and fore though dispels these rumours that are always abundant on CF, every sailor knows best

https://www.berthon.co.uk/yacht-sale...ening-remarks/

BoatUS, I would think has sufficient data.. They do cover boating trends on a worldly basis. Their articles over the past few yrs shows a general decline, most with millennials worldwide.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by WolfgangSeaLife

Generally, the sailboat for modern times has not been invented: Maintenance-free, self-parking, cheap and easy storage facilities on land. Hi-speed engine and fold-out surf blades, auto-furl sails, and joy-stick sheet control.

That boat will never exist.

Now if you trim the list to: easier handling (eg bowthruster and control systems), strong engine, power-assisted furling and winches... those boats exist but they are big and expensive. One example:







There ARE many technical refinements in the sailing world. There are new composites and fabrication techniques. Stronger, lighter sailcloth. Better spars, improved furling hardware. etc. There are a few smaller kickass boats (mostly racers) incorporating many of these.

But the average sailboat owner of limited means puts a higher priority on low costs and durability. And the many overbuilt craft from the last century have that in spades.

[cygnus]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I just returned from the Helsinki International Boat Show ("The biggest boating event in the Northern Europe", they say)

The exhibitors were spread out over two floors and a number of huge halls but there where near to no sailboats there!

A huge number of different species of motor boats, equipment, clothes, other marine stuff... but just three cruising sailboats (Hanse 348, Oceanis 30.1, Oceanis 38.1), tucked away into a corner of one of the halls.

I chatted with one person to confirm my memories of previous shows, and he did agree with me: the number of sailboats has decreased dramatically over the years.

On this forum, on the other hand, people seem to say that sailing in itself is not declining at all. So what's going on here?

Interesting, I have been going to the Miami boatshow for the last 12 years and found the same exact thing. The booths for Sailboats has dwindled to an area approx. 35 ft x 80 ft. Their was a handfull of Sailboats [ monohulls] in the NE corner outside. There were quite a few large Cats though. My opinion is the old time sailors are starting to die off, sad to say. Their are very few young people who want to sail. The big percentage of young people is power boats. I am 73 and most of my friends are 30- 50 yrs old. They say sailing is too slow for them. So....times are changing, time never stands still. Fair Winds

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by cygnus

My opinion is the old time sailors are starting to die off, sad to say. Their are very few young people who want to sail. The big percentage of young people is power boats. I am 73 and most of my friends are 30- 50 yrs old. They say sailing is too slow for them. So....times are changing, time never stands still. Fair Winds

I dinghy-sailed and windsurfed as a young person. We didn't have the resources, and much real interest in a larger boat and related costs, til our late 40s.

We got our first and current boat when we turned 50... and it seemed the right time. Maybe sailing/cruising a larger boat is simply an older person thing, when you have the time and resources to do it. Owning such a boat when you're younger might be too much of a commitment when you still need to be mobile and flexible in your career, starting a family, and struggling to get into a house.

On the other hand, Toronto has some great clubs with low costs and oriented towards dinghies, beach cats and micro-cruisers, and they are quite active and healthy, with many younger members. That's the farm team for yacht ownership. There needs to be more attention to facilitating this level of sailing. Hopefully they will graduate to bigger boats and cruising.

[wguterbock]

I sold my heavy cruising boat in the PNW because in the summer there is so little wind that on a 2 week cruise to Desolation sound one might only sail for a total of a 8hours. Sometimes there is too much wind right on the nose and one has to motor in order to get to a destination at a reasonable hour. There are still lots of sailboats in Anacortes, however. I think for true sailing pleasure in the light air up here in the summer a smaller, lighter boat is the answer. If you want to cruise, a powerboat offers greater comfort in the winter, and a quicker arrival at the destination.

[Poche]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Rant of the day

Not true, sailing is declining.

Why would dealers persist in pushing new sailboats when there is such a surplus of used ones available at a cheap price? People who want a sailboat can easily find a used sailboat.

Here in Mexico we rarely see people arriving with new boats (boats which were acquired new). On the contrary, most boats are on their third, fourth, or fifth owners, some many more.

Sailing is declining because more and more sailboat owners just realize that they don't like sailing. It is hard work, tiring, hot, time consuming, costly, prone to breakdowns, inconvenient, on and on. They motor almost all the time, and they buy boats which cannot sail anyhow. The trend to bigger and more complex boats exacerbates that; the joy of sailing a simple little sailboat is almost unknown; a thing of the past. If people keep their boats it's because it offers other things, such a opportunities for shoreside socializing, or abilities to visit scenic places.

I could got out today and return an owner of "a used boat". It gets a little more complicated if one doesn't want a Catalina or an Erickson.
Agree that sailing has been declining for a long time. Here in Southern California you generally don't get any wind until the afternoon. So you motor most of the time. Might as well buy a trawler.

[Pizzazz]

It seems that big boat sailing (ocean racing, etc) has always been an elite sport, requiring above average income and time availability. It was this way in the 80s and today. Dinghy sailing is for younger people who have a passion for the sport. Cruising used to be a marginal activity but in the last 20 years more people have become interested, partially due to availability of older low cost boats. Even if these numbers have increased, they are starting from such a low base (say 10,000 active cruisers out of one million plus sailboats that it does not move the needle. Most sailboats sit at marinas where they are rarely used (nor they are ready for more than an occasional island cruise). Most people who do an occasional island cruise are better served by power boats (faster, easier to drive).

On cruisers forum we have ten super active posters, one hundred semi active posters and may be a couple thousand spectators.

That is the market in a nutshell. Oh, then there is the charter markets in Greece and the BVI.

SV Pizzazz

[Bill_Giles]

As mentioned before someone wanting a sailboat will probably not go to a boat show to compare the wares. Current boat owners go to see what has been updated on their model. But people who have a wad of cash and need somewhere to spend it will buy a big powerboat.

[DeValency]

Nothing new here, motor boats are and were way more popular as in most cases they require lower seamanship skills, easy handling and much less of a commitment. - an easy entry point.

In most cases, boaters are boaters and sailors are sailors - simply different spices.... Almost a totally different experience by all means.

Most motor boats never leave for serious cruising and are not even designed for blue water/offshore voyages - and I’m not talking about mega yachts - oligarchs are not sailors nor boaters.

The racing world is almost 100% sailing and a real sport. Sorry, but personally, I cannot consider fishing a sport.

So, maybe better to travel a little from Helsinki to Dusseldorf every January to visit Boot - a real sailboats show (with tons of motor too).

But this wouldn’t change the popularity facts.

As for me, my happiest moment on the water is the engine turn off.

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I just returned from the Helsinki International Boat Show ("The biggest boating event in the Northern Europe", they say)

The exhibitors were spread out over two floors and a number of huge halls but there where near to no sailboats there!

A huge number of different species of motor boats, equipment, clothes, other marine stuff... but just three cruising sailboats (Hanse 348, Oceanis 30.1, Oceanis 38.1), tucked away into a corner of one of the halls.

I chatted with one person to confirm my memories of previous shows, and he did agree with me: the number of sailboats has decreased dramatically over the years.

On this forum, on the other hand, people seem to say that sailing in itself is not declining at all. So what's going on here?

[xtream]

It's really more about selling supply.

[RELENTLESS 1]

We just went to BOOT - it was HUGE - and fun and informative. We have our boat being delivered in July in S.France - so the chance to run around and talk to everyone from Greek and Turkish Marinas for options to winter and haul out to Insurance to a man who was selling the BEST boat hook (and $$$) but it was simple easy...I digress. We finalized our Electronics, our portable fridge, our furling system, found a true 'artist' boat wrapping company....worth every penny.

[SmokedGouda]

As a millennial, better off than most but still dealing with the economic realities of our generation, the decline in sailing, beyond all of the cultural factors is pretty simple math. Let me break it down for you(all estimates/prices based in Florida, where I live):

Let's say I am frugal and bought used 80s era Catalina 30 financed for $10,000, not extravagant, but a good starter for someone in their late 20's early 30's.

Recurring Fixed Monthly costs:
Payment: $300
Wet slip: $300 minimum if I want to be anywhere remotely interesting
Insurance: $20
Boat Tow US: $12

Yearly Maintenence:
Haulout + bottom paint: $800

Projects/Improvements:
$1500 a year on stuff that a 30 year old boat is going to need

Yearly/monthly cost:
$9,884y/$823.66 a month

Just for context, $800 a month is the mortage on a $200,000 house, or the payment on a $40-$50,000 car.

Let's say, for argument's sake, I got a steal of deal and bought a 30 ft boat cash for $3000 dollars. I still have over $500 in expenses every month.

The reason you only see new boats that are absurdly expensive is that the fixed costs of boating are too high, and the people who can afford those costs without flinching can also afford a $500,000 boat. Because why would I spend $200,000 on a 30ft cruiser when I can spend $500,000 on a 40 ft cruiser. It's only another $100 a month in slip fees so what the hell.

Basically, as a millennial, if I want own a sailboat I have to dedicate ALL of my "entertainment" budget to a single activity that most of my friends don't know anything about and probably won't want to do more than once or twice a year.

Now, I am obsessed with sailing, and I'll probably end up taking that plunge at some point soon, but for those who aren't pathologically obsessed? This is a very hard sell.

Instead of lamenting the death of sailing you should be lamenting the death of middle class discretionary income.