Too Deep Anchorages ???

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi

30 feet? Really? Best stay clear of Marlborough NZ too mate. 20 meters norm (60 ft). 40 meters if you have to anchor out. 3:1 rode depth ratio is OK though, unlike the 5:1 or 7:1 sometimes recommended. Minimum 150 meters of chain.

I grew up cruising that area. Certainly a hard place to sail, with a lot of deep anchorages but at the time we only had 40 meters of chain and a long length of nylon. We managed OK. 60 or 70 meters of chain would have been much better but I can't see 150m being essential?

I also cruised around Antarctica and the Beagle channel with 65 meters or so of chain, and that wasn't too limiting. If it was much deeper than 20-25 meters I'd go somewhere else or use a rope/chain combo.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Right... OK Ken, I'm on my boat at least six months a year. i almost never go to a marina, so anchored out all the time when not moving. I've travelled a few thousand nm over the past few years, experiencing everything from wild remote anchorages to places that were more like parking lots. Dealt with lots of storms and sliding boats in all sort of holding conditions

So, you tell me... when have I "gotten out" enough to have an informed opinion on this?

Like I said to Don, I deem my manual windlass to be more reliable and easier maintainable than electrics. Therefore I think I am in a safer position. And your speed argument is infinitely regressive. More speed is always better. You are in a worse position than the fellow with twice the speed as yours. Does this make you less safe?

My observation is that it takes me only about twice as long to haul in, so we're talking the difference of a few minutes. That's a pretty narrow 'doom' range. Meanwhile I have a more reliable, less costly windlass that has never let me down in the hundreds of launches and hauls we've done with it.

But what do I know...

The big hole in your contention that your manual windlass to be more reliable than an electric one is that most electric windlasses have the ability to be operated manually if the electric motor fails. So that makes them just as reliable as yours, at least in their manual mode.

As for speed, while I understand that in most conditions, it doesn't really matter how quickly your chain comes in, there are times when it's a real plus to be able to do it quickly, or to be able to send someone else forward to simply step on the switch to operate the windlass and pull in the chain while you remain at the helm taking the pressure off your windlass motor and making sure you don't drift into other nearby boats or a nearby ledge. Take the situation where you anchor in 30' of water at low tide. Where I live that means you'll have 40' at high tide and with the anchor roller 5' above the waterline (assuming 5:1) you'll probably have out about 225' of anchor rode. If you have to suddenly leave the anchorage with the wind blowing 40 knots, how are you going to accomplish that singlehanded? Unless you're a close relation to Popeye and you just dined on spinach, you'll be pretty exhausted by the time you use your manual windlass to pull your boat up to a point just over your anchor in 40 knots of wind, and assuming your anchor comes free at about 2:1 scope, that means you'll have about 75'-90' of anchor chain to (quickly, quickly) get in before your boat drifts into something you don't want it hitting. In this instance, the faster speed of an electric windlass IS a factor because you'll drift twice as far in twice the time it will take you to get your anchor up to your bow roller. I've had a 35' boat with no windlass except a pair of well worn work gloves so I can appreciate how a manual windlass would be a big step up from that, but a faster, easier to use electric windlass is yet another step up in convenience and safety. Not saying everybody should have one, but I do recognize the advantages they provide.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The big hole in your contention that your manual windlass to be more reliable than an electric one is that most electric windlasses have the ability to be operated manually if the electric motor fails. So that makes them just as reliable as yours, at least in their manual mode.

As for speed, while I understand that in most conditions, it doesn't really matter how quickly your chain comes in, there are times when it's a real plus to be able to do it quickly, or to be able to send someone else forward to simply step on the switch to operate the windlass and pull in the chain while you remain at the helm taking the pressure off your windlass motor and making sure you don't drift into other nearby boats or a nearby ledge. Take the situation where you anchor in 30' of water at low tide. Where I live that means you'll have 40' at high tide and with the anchor roller 5' above the waterline (assuming 5:1) you'll probably have out about 225' of anchor rode. If you have to suddenly leave the anchorage with the wind blowing 40 knots, how are you going to accomplish that singlehanded? Unless you're a close relation to Popeye and you just dined on spinach, you'll be pretty exhausted by the time you use your manual windlass to pull your boat up to a point just over your anchor in 40 knots of wind, and assuming your anchor comes free at about 2:1 scope, that means you'll have about 75'-90' of anchor chain to (quickly, quickly) get in before your boat drifts into something you don't want it hitting. In this instance, the faster speed of an electric windlass IS a factor because you'll drift twice as far in twice the time it will take you to get your anchor up to your bow roller. I've had a 35' boat with no windlass except a pair of well worn work gloves so I can appreciate how a manual windlass would be a big step up from that, but a faster, easier to use electric windlass is yet another step up in convenience and safety. Not saying everybody should have one, but I do recognize the advantages they provide.

I've never had an electric windlass fail , but the big hole in your contention is that the electrics actually work any good that way. None of mine have. You basically get on your knees and turn the wildcat 3-4 inches at a time. FAR easier to put on a pair of gloves and pull the anchor up!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

turn the wildcat 3-4 inches at a time.

Haven't seen one like that but have operated quite a few electrics that use a winch handle and continuous cranking is just as fast and (opinion) easier than the lever on most manuals.

[hellosailor]

I've never had to kedge off a shoal, either, but.

Unless you've got a really wee mast and a big manly anchor, what's to stop the sailor in a jam from grabbing a spare halyard, running it forward to the anchor chain, and then using whatever winch it was attached to, to hoist 35' of anchor chain up the mast?

Yeah, not a great place to keep chain, but it will be hauled out of the water and into the boat, with mechanical assistance.

[Sunsetrider]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

this photo is at the very bottom of Cape May harbour south of the the yacht club in less than 3' of water at low tide. (we draw 3').

The scope!!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I don't see an issue with shallow anchorages. Many times on the ICW we have pulled over to the side and dropped an anchor on shore in skinny stretches. We also routinely run our boat into mud at low tide, anchor and leave when the tide pops us out.

this photo is at the very bottom of Cape May harbour south of the the yacht club in less than 3' of water at low tide. (we draw 3').

Makes my back ache just thinking about hauling all that scope in!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Sunsetrider

The scope!!

..... bout' 2:1

Didn't move at all when Matthew passed by

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I've never had an electric windlass fail , but the big hole in your contention is that the electrics actually work any good that way. None of mine have. You basically get on your knees and turn the wildcat 3-4 inches at a time. FAR easier to put on a pair of gloves and pull the anchor up!

We needed to manually haul up our 45kg Ultra along with 150ft of 1/2 chain two weeks ago when an unattended Moorings bareboat charter catamaran dragged anchor straight into us. Our windlass overheated and shut off due to my wife needing to steer around the dragging boat while I was attempting to haul up the anchor using the windlass.

It can be done using the winch handle in the top of the windlass much quicker than the above post suggests. It's not fun, but it's not very often that it needs to be done. Whereas.... I believe the operator of the manual only windlass is required to bring up the anchor manually 100% of the time.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I grew up cruising that area. Certainly a hard place to sail, with a lot of deep anchorages but at the time we only had 40 meters of chain and a long length of nylon. We managed OK. 60 or 70 meters of chain would have been much better but I can't see 150m being essential?

I also cruised around Antarctica and the Beagle channel with 65 meters or so of chain, and that wasn't too limiting. If it was much deeper than 20-25 meters I'd go somewhere else or use a rope/chain combo.

Actually we'd use the extra chain only on occasion, to anchor well out of everyone else's way during very high winds (storm) and when the close in anchorages were crowded with boats liable to drag.

For example, out from Furneaux when the spring gale NW howls straight down from the ridge accelerating through the channel and anchorage, getting 40 - 60 kts. I think that anchorage, say 3 or 4 rows out (75 - 100 meters) from the wharf is 20-25 meters depth.

In those conditions we'd chuck all the chain out in mid channel, probably 400 meters out (I think the bay is 800 meters across), and sleep well. I can't remember ever dragging in the deeper water with all that chain. (Have I just diluted my own point? as in these examples we are anchoring OUT of the "anchorage"?)

So I reckon the extra chain was really handy in giving an extra option, but (as you say) not essential.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I've never had to kedge off a shoal, either, but.

Unless you've got a really wee mast and a big manly anchor, what's to stop the sailor in a jam from grabbing a spare halyard, running it forward to the anchor chain, and then using whatever winch it was attached to, to hoist 35' of anchor chain up the mast?

Yeah, not a great place to keep chain, but it will be hauled out of the water and into the boat, with mechanical assistance.

Nothing to stop from doing that in a jam. I've done it several times. Better to use the Genoa sheet winch though, rather than a spare halyard. The sheet drags the chain along the deck, the halyard tries to lift it. Wear to the teak, vs lifting the weight.

In the end its about the wind conditions and the possibility of drifting into an obstacle whilst mucking around getting the pick up. Often you just get it almost off the bottom, and then motor out, dragging it or trailing it, until well clear of obstacles. (I am talking about manual winching when you're on your own, or when the missus feels incapable of taking the wheel coz she's on the phone, or the baby is crying, or something. <grin>)

[Mike OReilly]

I'll happily challenge any of you electric windlassers to a fully manual contest.

Look, I know everyone (including me) wants to feel right about their choice. I think my manual is virtually bullet proof, and this makes me feel safer than relying on something that depends on wiring and battery power. Mine can be easily maintained and repaired by any idiot (like me). Other people will value different things and come to different conclusions. That's fine. This is why there is almost never one right answer for every cruising question.

[sailorboy1]

My windlass has broken twice in the past. Once it was a mechanical problem and once it was the motor magnetic had come loose. Both times it was in a deep" anchorage. Second time I was solo and a 65lb anchor and 30' on chain is a lot for a fat man to pull up by hand. But hey I got it up!

But for subject are people saying that for the part 20-30' deep anchorages are avoided because people are scared their windlass is going to break? You start thinking that was and you never go anywhere.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'll happily challenge any of you electric windlassers to a fully manual contest.

Look, I know everyone (including me) wants to feel right about their choice. I think my manual is virtually bullet proof, and this makes me feel safer than relying on something that depends on wiring and battery power. Mine can be easily maintained and repaired by any idiot (like me). Other people will value different things and come to different conclusions. That's fine. This is why there is almost never one right answer for every cruising question.

Lighter boat, generally fair conditions, not to deep anchorages, you'd have my vote every time.

I reckon I voted that policy with my feet (wallet?), and stripped most electrics off my boat over the years = big maintenance cost saving, improved reliability and serviceability.

But with a heavy boat, deep anchorages, often high wind conditions, and often solo or with hopeless passengers = must have a powerful electric windlass (12 volt, but with power cables the diameter of my thumb, and manual backup system (haha sheet winch)). The electric windlass was probably the only thing I was never tempted to un-electrify. (Oh, and the instruments).

[Zven]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

As for speed, while I understand that in most conditions, it doesn't really matter how quickly your chain comes in, there are times when it's a real plus to be able to do it quickly, or to be able to send someone else forward to simply step on the switch to operate the windlass and pull in the chain while you remain at the helm taking the pressure off your windlass motor and making sure you don't drift into other nearby boats or a nearby ledge. Take the situation where you anchor in 30' of water at low tide. Where I live that means you'll have 40' at high tide and with the anchor roller 5' above the waterline (assuming 5:1) you'll probably have out about 225' of anchor rode. If you have to suddenly leave the anchorage with the wind blowing 40 knots, how are you going to accomplish that singlehanded? Unless you're a close relation to Popeye and you just dined on spinach, you'll be pretty exhausted by the time you use your manual windlass to pull your boat up to a point just over your anchor in 40 knots of wind, and assuming your anchor comes free at about 2:1 scope, that means you'll have about 75'-90' of anchor chain to (quickly, quickly) get in before your boat drifts into something you don't want it hitting. In this instance, the faster speed of an electric windlass IS a factor because you'll drift twice as far in twice the time it will take you to get your anchor up to your bow roller...

I think nobody has mentioned that electric windlasses also often come with remote control... Well at least mine does. One person can steer the boat while simultaneously pressing the buttons to lift anchor.

This is a motor yacht, but I can't see any reason a sailboat can't do the same.

Normally I'd have someone on the bow dealing with the anchor and all .. and i realize that this kind of kit can fail. But having the option to control everything from one place can make a big difference for the sort of stressful situations mentioned.