Sydney Hobart Race Upset - Celestial Loses Protest

[Ozbullwinkle]

Wotname....thats right the 13 PLB activations were all 406 units.

Here in Australia the newly released GME MT610G does not appear to be as rugged as the now superceded MT410G unit. Also the new model can only be attached with a carbiner if the optional case is purchased as there is no belt loop.

During ocean races I would not like my PLB flopping around on a carbiner which can get caught in sheets or other deck equipment or even worse snag a lifeline in an emergency situation.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle

Wotname....thats right the 13 PLB activations were all 406 units.

Here in Australia the newly released GME MT610G does not appear to be as rugged as the now superceded MT410G unit. Also the new model can only be attached with a carbiner if the optional case is purchased as there is no belt loop.

During ocean races I would not like my PLB flopping around on a carbiner which can get caught in sheets or other deck equipment or even worse snag a lifeline in an emergency situation.

Yes. I have the ACR and I can't imagine how my model could be accidentally turned on. I am interested in this also.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Montanan

.......
Most PLBs today can provide rescuers with GPS-provided coordinates to pinpoint your location even more precisely. It would seem that the authorities would soon realize that the PLB is moving steadily along a track towards Hobart and thus realize it was likely a false activation given that the vessel would presumably activate its EPRIB if it was in distress.

One needs to be cautious about extrapolating from a GPS enabled PLB to a real time tracking of a GPS enabled PLB.

I am not across the current technology of GPS enabled PLBs but I was across it a decade back when I had access to service manuals and circuits of the then current models from a variety of manufacturers.

Back then, the GPS engine of most units were turned off a short(ish) time after activation. AFAIK, KTI was the first manufacturer to provide real time GPS co-ordinates that were transmitted for 24 hours (once very 5 mins IIRC). All other manufacturers used the initial GPS position, turned off the GPS engine and then repeated the initial position for some time. I forgot how long but it varied from some minutes to some hours depending on the manufacturer's 'whim'. There were no standards (re GPS aspects) then and I don't believe there are any today. I'd be happy to proved wrong though!

You would think it would be a no brainer to keep the GPS engine running and provide real time position updates but back then, the concern was battery life and current draw. Everyone was trying to make a smaller unit (ie smaller battery) and turning off the GPS engine was done to that end. Manufacturers' were coy about providing information about this 'drawback' in their marketing specifications although they couldn't dodge the issue in their service manuals. I suspect they no longer have 'approved' service agents outside of their own organisation and thus the 'secrets' remain secret.

Again, I am not aware of the current situation of real time tracking of GPS enabled PLBs and FWIW, nor about GPS enabled EPIRBs. Perhaps others know - I guess the various RCCs know.

[clownfishsydney]

We had two PLBs go off from the Sydney Hobart fleet that were picked up by our NSW Marine Rescue radio base. Took a lot of work to find someone to take responsibility for actioning them. Both from same boat, as numbers only two apart.

[goboatingnow]

These days , most gps equipped PLBs and GPIRBS do provide an updated GPS position. , such updating intervals varying between manufacturers. However the ground station processing is not designed for minute to minute real time tracking and it would be very difficult for the tracking station on shore to reliably determine in a short time frame if the plb was moving and hence a potential false alarm

[Ozbullwinkle]

Originally Posted by clownfishsydney

We had two PLBs go off from the Sydney Hobart fleet that were picked up by our NSW Marine Rescue radio base. Took a lot of work to find someone to take responsibility for actioning them. Both from same boat, as numbers only two apart.

Wow, 2 accidental activations from the same yacht, unless it may have been 2 crew from the same yacht club who went shopping together then sailed on different yachts.You wouldn't think this was possible especially when a lot of PLB's require a 2 stage action to activate it...it's not like you can just actually lean against the on off switch to start activation & transmitting. As I have said earlier this has got to be investigated to determine why so many accidental activations happened at all.

I am surprised that it was hard to find someone to take responsibility for these signals, doesn't AMSA coordinate all such events? For the benefit of international readers AMSA = Australian Marine Safety Authority.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle

Littlewing77....They would have been running the engine to charge the batteries.

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Many of these large racing machines have canting keels and hydraulic winches, requiring a substantial hydraulic power system to be constantly run.

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Same first thought, Montanan! What the h*ll was the engine doing on? But of course, with today's electronics, they must've been charging their batteries...

Thanks, Guys, but I do understand - and said so in the second sentence of my post as you can see above. Sheesh.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle

Wow, 2 accidental activations from the same yacht, unless it may have been 2 crew from the same yacht club who went shopping together then sailed on different yachts.You wouldn't think this was possible especially when a lot of PLB's require a 2 stage action to activate it...it's not like you can just actually lean against the on off switch to start activation & transmitting. As I have said earlier this has got to be investigated to determine why so many accidental activations happened at all.

I am surprised that it was hard to find someone to take responsibility for these signals, doesn't AMSA coordinate all such events? For the benefit of international readers AMSA = Australian Marine Safety Authority.

Yep, I confused as well. AMSA is the Cospas-Sarsat RCC for the Australian region. Any 406 activation will be first routed to the nearest RCC - in the case of the Sydney to Hobart, this means any activation will be routed to AMSA. They will then determine the status and if needed, delegate to the appropriate rescue service.

So when ClownFishSydney says

picked up by our NSW Marine Rescue radio base

, I am not entirely sure what this means. Did AMSA contact NSW Marine Rescue or did NSW Marine Rescue somehow first receive the alert from the PLB - was this close to shore i.e. direct LOS of the 406 data bust or what?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Yep, I confused as well. AMSA is the Cospas-Sarsat RCC for the Australian region. Any 406 activation will be first routed to the nearest RCC - in the case of the Sydney to Hobart, this means any activation will be routed to AMSA. They will then determine the status and if needed, delegate to the appropriate rescue service.



So when ClownFishSydney says , I am not entirely sure what this means. Did AMSA contact NSW Marine Rescue or did NSW Marine Rescue somehow first receive the alert from the PLB - was this close to shore i.e. direct LOS of the 406 data bust or what?

I suspect the former is the case. The RCC will typically alert the nearest appropriate radio station /rescue substation to attempt to make contact.

[RaymondR]

We don't appear to use DSC in Australia so I'm not familiar with how it works but is this a problem it would help prevent?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Thanks, Guys, but I do understand - and said so in the second sentence of my post as you can see above. Sheesh.

These boats are a bit smaller than the 100 footers like Black Jack, but they do have canting keels. On the big guys they have a substantial diesel running full time to supply hydraulic power to the keel and to winches and quite possibly the toaster. Not sure if the smaller maxis do the same, but it seems likely and that would explain the engine running situation too.

An aspect of the sport that I don't like at all, but the very influential owners of such boats have convinced the race committees that is a good thing. I recall that Comanche could be run in "manual mode" for things like attempting the Trans Atlantic record a few years back... so why a special dispensation for the S2H?

Off the soapbox now, so happy new year to ya LW, and to all of CF as well.

Jim

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

These boats are a bit smaller than the 100 footers like Black Jack, but they do have canting keels. On the big guys they have a substantial diesel running full time to supply hydraulic power to the keel and to winches and quite possibly the toaster. Not sure if the smaller maxis do the same, but it seems likely and that would explain the engine running situation too.



An aspect of the sport that I don't like at all, but the very influential owners of such boats have convinced the race committees that is a good thing. I recall that Comanche could be run in "manual mode" for things like attempting the Trans Atlantic record a few years back... so why a special dispensation for the S2H?



Off the soapbox now, so happy new year to ya LW, and to all of CF as well.



Jim

Heck, I sailed a 42’ canting keel boat in Auckland a few years ago and that had a large hydraulic pump on their little engine that ran 100% of the time while racing. There was a special lockout that was instrumented on the gearbox to be able to prove that the engine was not put into gear while racing. Not very peaceful in light airs particularly, but relatively common to many race boats over 40’ for their keel and winch hydraulics. You’ll notice that many newer boats don’t have pedestal grinders anymore - a sure sign that they’re using hydraulics.

Carbon boats with no bulkheads are very noisy in any sort of fresh weather, even without an engine, so I can imagine how the Celestial navigator could miss the repeated radio calls. On some boats they use headset intercoms that have VHF and internal comms on separate channels, but not on Celestial I guess.

In any case, a real bummer for Celestial and a mixed blessing for Ichi Ban as their win will always be asterisked. It will be interesting to read the protest committee report as to what actually happened.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^
thanks for the update, Fxy. I didn't realize that the "rot" had spread that far down the spectrum of raceboats. Still seems wrong to me, but that likely will not distress the folks who run and own those boats!

Cheers,

Jim

[HeywoodJ]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

We don't appear to use DSC in Australia so I'm not familiar with how it works but is this a problem it would help prevent?

I’m with you. With a DSC call you can get visual indication by flashing light or other means if you want. Is it 2021/2022 and we’re still not using DSC? Could even require participants to set up a group so conversations are ‘public’ within the race fleet.

And the RC and any other boat could monitor location by requiring that the radios have automatic response to DSC location requests turned on. Yes, that may present a challenge in racing, but if you want proof the VHF is on and operational a DSC check is automatic and takes no effort on the part of the crew. RC and relays could run them as frequently as desired. Might even allow the RC to start settings standards for the quality of the radio installation (failure to respond over a certain distance and/or time results in penalty).

[Ozbullwinkle]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^
thanks for the update, Fxy. I didn't realize that the "rot" had spread that far down the spectrum of raceboats. Still seems wrong to me, but that likely will not distress the folks who run and own those boats!

Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim, I totally agree with your thoughts about canting keels & the need to continually run either the engine or a genset to provide the power for the keel hydraulics. It is just not sailing in the spirit of true race yachts.

Just a point about the yacht in this incident being Celestial, it has a fixed bulb keel just like the other TP52's including Ichi Ban which is a Botin 52, they do not have canting keels so they only need to run engines for battery recharges.

As an aside, Celestial claimed that their navigator spent 97% of the race at the Nav station but could not be contacted on VHF for 90 mins while the navigator was on deck with the handheld VHF turned off.

But rules are rules however Ichi Ban's third handicap win will always be tarnished. As the race committee had lodged a protest themselves maybe Ichi Ban could have left it at that & not also proceeded with their own protest as the outcome would have likely been the same anyway.