Sloop, Cutter, Ketch or Cutter-ketch?

[CptCrunchie]

I'm sure this topic has been discussed at length, though with the advancement of technology and some new experiences, some may have changed their preference. I read the other thread from 2007, but while many had their preference, but for a few, they didn't say their reasons.

Wifey and I are looking for a sailboat in the 50'-ish range. While we have definite ideas of what we want, this subject continues to come up. I ask this because there are a ton of ketches on the market, ....but I don't understand the concept off them.

I want a cutter. I've raced 3 of them (the cutter-ketch being the exception) and really like how a cutter seems to pull the bow through the waves. I believe it is because most of the power is forward of the mast. I also really like the sail options. In fact, I was on one full keel cutter with the headsail mounted 6' forward of the bow on the end of the bowsprit, and when the telltales were set, it pretty much sailed itself.

IME, the mizzen on a ketch felt like it added a ton of weather helm when sailing close, up to a beam reach. Abaft of that seemed okay, though the captain would usually bring the mizzen in - not sure why, and I didn't ask. I will admit, though, the boat handled completely differently without it - easier.

Which leads to the more seemingly balanced cutter-ketch. While this too would bring the power back to the bow, does it actually balance the load? Moreover, how often would the mizzen get used?

The last determining factor (like all sailing couples) is Wifey. At 5'4", she fights with winches. I'm thinking that a cutter with its 3 smaller sails would be easier to handle than 4 smaller sails or a sloop, particularly when we are planning to do a lot of gunkholing through the South Pacific ourselves.

Which brings up a boat I'm seriously looking at. It's a cutter with 3 electric winches. My issue is that it is little more of a project boat than a ketch I found. While the ketch does have an inside stay, my beliefs are preventing me from even considering it.

I'm not asking which one is better; that has likely been hashed over well into inane conversation. If I may ask, what is YOUR preference, and why?

[NoShoes]

Serendipitous that you speak of this today, as I was resting back on my push pit pondering the idea of extending my bow sprit out 8 feet and setting up a head sail at the end of the bowsprit followed by a staysail at the bow., on a 35ft cheoy lee.....can I go a genoa. + 2 staysails forward of the main?

[LoudMusic]

To me a center cockpit cutter ketch is the quintessential cruising sailboat.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

To me a center cockpit cutter ketch is the quintessential cruising sailboat.

Agree

A well designed cutter ketch is a glorious thing. Lots of sail area in manageable size packages, very versatile. These boats tend to have large powerful mizzens, just slightly smaller than the main.

There are a bunch of ketches with small mizzens, which to my personal experience are poor designs. The mizzens becomes only for helm trim on a poorly balanced hull.

[HankOnthewater]

Loudmusic added another variable, a cruising boat to have a centre cockpit.
Indeed the type of rigging may be important but likely not the most important aspect.
For a cruising boat the following criteria need to be met to some degree (IMO):
1 self-sufficiency
2 reliability
3 ease of handling
4 ease of maintenance/repair
5 comfort
6 space
On purpose i left out: aesthetics, costs, ability to sail fast; these 3 variables do not prohibit or enable safe and enjoyable cruising.

The way the original poster asked the question, he seems to need a rig that is easy to handle. If that his priority than a rig like a cat-ketch (free-standing masts) would fit those needs very well. There is a good thread of these kind of boats here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ts-150283.html

The second questing the OP asked was our personal preferences and why. Unfortunately I never sailed any of the above boats except 45 ft racing boat with single unstayed mast, that was a difficult to sail/control (for me).

And if I could not have a cat-ketch, then I would still look for a schooner, or nearly ketch-like rig like the Sundeers (you were looking for a biggish boat, weren't you?). Two masts maybe equal height, low aspect, easy to reef, smallish headsails.

And talk about reefing, IMO the most difficult tasks, the OP should look how easy or difficult it is to reef when winds are up, boat is pitching, decks are wet and nights are dark. Hehehe, and often the booms are very high, so out of reach for his 5.4' partner.

Therefore I say: type of rig is less important, more how it is set up and controlled. For cruising: the less effort the better. BTW I have a boat like Loudmusic described, and happy with that, but if an opportunity would come along for a cat-ketch....... I would check that out.

[nhschneider]

My wife and I bought a 48’ double-head sails ketch (her designer says that a cutter has one mast) 25 years ago and last week we completed an 8-year, 48,000-mile circumnavigation.

We found the mizzenmast to be most effective on beam reaches and had zero benefit when close hauled. When we were running, which was most of the time, we poled out our genoa to the windward side and prevented the main.

I haven’t sailed on other boats that are rigged similarly to mine so I can’t comment on whether it’s rig or design but our boat balances very easily and our autopilot would typically have very little correcting to do, even in significant seas.

There’s a photo of our boat in my profile.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[Moody46CC]

I have a center cockpit cutter rig. The main drawback with the rig is a very large headsail and a fairly large mainsail--the mast is 65'. Staysail is not large. I do not have an electric winch for raising the sails. On the other hand, with roller reefing and in-mast furling, the sails only go up once each year, so ..... Not a real issue. Ketches were popular because the sails were smaller when one had to raise them each time one sailed, but in-mast and roller reefing has obviated that problem.

A ketch does have some flexibility in its sail plan, as owners are always waxing about jib and jigger. I can't address that, but my boat handles well. The main which is about 400 sq' is the power sail--over 15 knots I'll reef it a little (roll her in until it is halfway down between masthead and top set of spreaders, and she sets up straight and loses no speed. over 23-25 I'll drop the jib (600sq') and use the staysail, and again, she sits up and loses no speed. Over 30-35, start rolling in the main as needed. In heavy weather the staysail is self tacking which is really nice.

My main winches are power, but we rarely use the power. But it is there.

My boat is not full keeled but has a shallow draft flattened bulb (5'3") keel and a rudder with a partial skeg. Displacement is 15 tons, so she is stiff. I do not race. Don't care to spill my beverages.

[Jolly Roger]

I have sailed all of the above and the only rig I would ever have is what I’ve now got—a Brigantine schooner. The reasoning explained on the home page of my website.

[Kenomac]

A cutter rig with electric in mast furling brand new main sail with vertical battens. Yankee with hydraulic push button furling, and a staysail which doubles as a storm sail. Our Oyster 53 will be the perfect boat for the OP, and it’s for sale.

[CptCrunchie]

Excellent information! Thanks! A little more about what we are considering.

It must be a center cockpit. Since most of our time away will be on anchor, we want a large aft centerline berth in the MSR, good tankage, and a watermaker so we can have regular showers. I am 6'4", so headroom is a necessity.

Interestingly, everything we have looked at in this size has had a skegged rudder, which I much prefer. However, in the age of boat we are looking at and where we will be going, I have zero desire for a teak deck.

Wifey wants electric winches, a seat up on the bow so she can hang out with the dolphins, a hard dodger, and a washer/dryer. I questioned her about the last one, as it takes very little to wash a string bikini by hand. I'd tell you her response, ....but the monitor might punt me.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

Excellent information! Thanks! A little more about what we are considering.

It must be a center cockpit. Since most of our time away will be on anchor, we want a large aft centerline berth in the MSR, good tankage, and a watermaker so we can have regular showers. I am 6'4", so headroom is a necessity.

Interestingly, everything we have looked at in this size has had a skegged rudder, which I much prefer. However, in the age of boat we are looking at and where we will be going, I have zero desire for a teak deck.

Wifey wants electric winches, a seat up on the bow so she can hang out with the dolphins, a hard dodger, and a washer/dryer. I questioned her about the last one, as it takes very little to wash a string bikini by hand. I'd tell you her response, ....but the monitor might punt me.

You’ve described our boat in your past few posts. It’s presently being offered to CF members for $370k for a limited time between broker listings, you can see it on yachtworld or on the CF for sale listings. Or drop me a PM.

It has everthing you’re asking for in a boat.

[akopac]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

To me a center cockpit cutter ketch is the quintessential cruising sailboat.

I can completely back that up. We have a cutter ketch and the staysail is handy going to weather, but mizzen and jibbin is flat sailing in heavy weather. We’ve called it the magic carpet ride. Low solid power. Also easy to heave to in heavy weather. The mixer is part of your balanced sailing package.

[Jolly Roger]

The thing about ketches, schooners and all two masted vessels is the potential to set a variation of sails, to suit the conditions. They also generally have smaller sails which are easier to handle short handed—however they are handled.
A mizzen mast not only carries a Bermudian sail, but can also fly a very useful mizzen staysail and a fisherman.
I would suggest to CptCrunchie that he looks for a two masted boat which has the basic requirements he needs, like headroom, center cockpit, etc. To which I would add a long keel—for a lot of reasons. Not a boat which has all the goodies he thinks he needs—most of which can be fitted after he and wifey are certain they need them.
For instance a pulpit seat is an easy addition to any boat, as is a water maker, and a washing machine. Even manual winches and roller furling can be converted to electric.
All you need is money.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

The last determining factor (like all sailing couples) is Wifey. At 5'4", she fights with winches. I'm thinking that a cutter with its 3 smaller sails would be easier to handle than 4 smaller sails or a sloop, particularly when we are planning to do a lot of gunkholing through the South Pacific ourselves.

Which brings up a boat I'm seriously looking at. It's a cutter with 3 electric winches. My issue is that it is little more of a project boat than a ketch I found. While the ketch does have an inside stay, my beliefs are preventing me from even considering it.

I'm not asking which one is better; that has likely been hashed over well into inane conversation. If I may ask, what is YOUR preference, and why?

I'm sure the cruising purists will scream but I prefer a sloop. An easily driven sloop with sufficient sail area.

We can set a small jib (85%) a full main with three reef points available and this will get us sailing well in 11 knots of true wind, up to over thirty.

Two sails, one mast, fewer lines, fewer hassles.

We have big winches and handling/trimming these sails is very easy. My 68 yr old wife can do it. (these winches can also lift the dingy, a pallet of batteries, a month's provisions, whatever)

Don't pay attention to the naysayers who speak against things sloopish such as, center of effort is too far forward, doesn't work downwind, whatever, they are theoretical which don't amount to much in actuality (in my opinion). And the sloop is FAST.

Keep things simple and easy.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm sure the cruising purists will scream but I prefer a sloop. An easily driven sloop with sufficient sail area.

We can set a small jib (85%) a full main with three reef points available and this will get us sailing well in 11 knots of true wind, up to over thirty.

Two sails, one mast, fewer lines, fewer hassles.

We have big winches and handling/trimming these sails is very easy. My 68 yr old wife can do it. (these winches can also lift the dingy, a pallet of batteries, a month's provisions, whatever)

Don't pay attention to the naysayers who speak against things sloopish such as, center of effort is too far forward, doesn't work downwind, whatever, they are theoretical which don't amount to much in actuality (in my opinion). And the sloop is FAST.

Keep things simple and easy.

Thank you for you post. I've been on a number of sloops. Here in the PNW, I'd bet that half the boats here are sloops. And I hear you about the less is more, and I know from experience that a sloop can head up farther than a cutter, with slightly more speed close to in lighter blows.

Not sure this is a purest issue, but more physical and tactical. In calmer seas to windward, I found very little difference. But in a blow, I found two distinct differences,... and guys, please tell me if I am out to lunch.

1. I found that a sloop moves completely different to a cutter, particularly in a blow. A sloop feels like it see-saws over the waves, where a well fitted cutter seems surge forward, as if to slice through the wave tops. The one with the headsail out on the bowsprit is a perfect example. Not sure I've seen a sloop with the luff out there, but considering the amount of SF of sail was very similar, the movement of the boat was distinct.

2. While I acknowledge a cutter won't sail quite as close to the wind as a sloop, I would rather have 2 smaller sails than one big one and fall off a little. I have found I can leave the smaller sails up far longer than the large genoa of a sloop. To me, that means more power for longer.

But with that said, I was on one sloop where the genoa was so big, the clue was level with the middle of stanchions, which pinched the foot up over the the railing. I must say, it felt a more like a cutter than a sloop. However, as soon as the wind picked up, we had to furl half of it in. The size we had left would have been the full size of a cutters headsail, but no staysail. To me, that says a lot about both.

Still mulling over the cutter-ketch thing. Only drawbacks I see are the extra maintenance, Wifey having issues keeping everything set through her watch, and the loss of the aft deck and radar arch of the cutter we are currently considering.

Lots to think about. Thank you all.