Sell it or sail it and import?

[mischief]

Howdy,
Okay this going to be a bit long winded.....

We are the proud owners of a Nantucket islander 33. We absolute love our vessel and currently we are in Australia. We have been live aboard with our two girls for the past couple years and making constant improvements.

We have all but decided to move back to Canada as I come from a very large close family and feel our girls are missing out on that aspect. My father has declining health and we have decided we would like to be there within about two years. That's how long it will take to get our affairs and the girls citizenship papers done.

We are not by any means well off and so expenses etc are a real concern.

Originally we thought we would sail back to Canada one day but now that's happening a lot sooner. I do not want to wait until it's too late with my father. With our income we could afford to visit once before the girls were old enough to move out or we could relocate there.

Things we need to consider,
The cost of sailing back,
The journey,
If there would be duty for the boat or if it would qualify as personal (registers and used for a number of years in the country we resided)
What the resale would be in Canada if we had to sell there. (This could be likely)

A quick run down
To move using airline is going to be about 8k for tickets. If we just use luggage and sell what we can there will still be $3-$4k in excess baggage insurance and buying the suitcases.

We could ship a container door to door not sell everything and that is about 10K

To sail i have okay sails but would feel better with newly stitched sails or a new headsail and main.
Rigging is about 14yo so I would like to rerig.
I could do that myself and would probably go Dux2. I could rerig with wire if I wanted.

The engine is new and the boat is very stout. All wiring is new as is refrigeration, lights etc.

I have a plethora of safety gear but would likely buy a new life raft too. There's things like life rings MOB lift harness sea anchor storm gear throw ropes, jacklines etc etc she was passed for offshore racing with less safety gear then there is now, that was a few years ago. I would obtain a sat phone and have an old Coden HF radio.

I reckon doing the work myself and being thrifty maybe 15K in works need doing and 5k for expenses like fuel stores and food etc while making the journey.
I'm not sure the logistic expenses for clearances visas etc would cost though.

Maybe I'm way off on my figures. But I was thinking it could be near the same expense to sail as fly back and get a shipping container.

It sure would be a good experience for the family and if we did have to sell, it's one more thing in life they could draw from.

Any insight into the journey from Australia to Canada? Logistics, costs, time frames or other?

How about dual citizens that bought boats and used registered and used them in the country if residence then imported to Canada? Is this the same as a car and considered exempt under personal importation?
How about expenses as liveaboard on the west coast where there's work available? (We are insulated and have new propane heating)

Thanks any insight is gratefully appreciated.

[StuM]

The boats' probably worth more in Aus than in Canada. So selling it and buying something else when you get there is a definite option.

If you're talking about new sails and rigging, new safety gear, liferaft, sat phone etc it's going to cost more than 15K and you won't recover that investment at the other end.

It will be a long, hard slog going W->E for a 33 footer.

[Jim Cate]

Where in Canada will you (and the boat, if sailed over) be located? Have you investigated costs and availability of moorage there? Have you considered the wear and tear costs of such a long, mostly upwind passage? there can be significant expenses even after a minor refit such as you discribe. And as Stu says, it is a pretty small boat for 4 bodies on what will be a lot of longish legs, not always under favourable conditions!
I know folks who have done the milk run in smaller boats with two kids on board, but they were mostly island hopping, and mostly down wind.

Honestly, I can't see it as being a good choice, ether fiscally or family-wise... but then, I don't know you or your family. I salute your decision, BTW, and hope that you have good years with your Dad.

Jim

[mischief]

Thanks for the replies so far.
I'll Just give a little more detail.

Size wise we are no problem with the four aboard. As we've been on for a few years and we are adapted to being cooped up for long periods the boat is extremely comfortable.

The Nantucket islander 33 is a very seaworthy boat and this one was made for offshore with extra lead. The sea motion is good and she points quite high for a flush deck model. In 1999 she was prepped for long passages including new spars heavier winches etc. the owner tuned I'll and sold it on. I know that's a while ago but the spars were upgraded then and are still great.
Most safety stuff I have does not need replacing but I would need to get a few things. She was certified for offshore racing up until 4 years ago.

If we did decide to go we would try and island hop as much as possible To Hawaii then onto North America.

As far as investment if it cost 20k for us to sail all up then i would not care if we did not see return on that money. I wouldn't see anything back from the airlines either.

I know the boat would be worth less but if I sell here I'm going to loose a good 5-7% likely in exchanging funds and transfers.
I also suspect that having sails used from Australia to Canada and rigging etc. would still be added value over sails and rigging 16 years old.

There would also be some value in having that trip just as any holiday has costs attached.

On the other hand there's less hassle and more time with family and opportunities by just flying over. It will be 16-24 months for our girls papers to be all sorted so we could not sail until then. I reckon we would allow a year to get back if we could not make it in the one season or had problems.

Then again we would have our own place to live on the west coast when we arrived. But my family is in the Rockies and we would likely move inland anyway. Once we could sell the boat. I guess that's part of the adventure for the family. I see that as valuable to some degree.

I guess we have worked hard to get our boat and hoped to one day sail it back to Canada and giving up on that dream is likely permanent. I do not want my family to miss out on a great opportunity. But I don't want them to be put through hardships if I bite off way more then I can chew sailing back.

I know I'm capable. I know the boat could be capable. I know people sail across the pond in lesser boats, people sail big passages

[Jim Cate]

OK, it sounds like you have a reasonably realistic view of the passages, and I'm less inclined to view you as a dreamer! Sorry that I took that attitude, but we get so many dreamer types posting here that i jumped to an unwarranted conclusion.

Anyhow, what is your proposed time scale for the whole voyage? Are you stopping to smell the roses, or will it be more of a delivery trip? There are several potential routes, all of which have good/bad points. Several friends of ours have made that journey, mostly via NZ, some part of FP, and then up to Hawaii, but one, in a biggish (90 foot) yacht did it via an equatorial route... lots of motoring on that one, but calm seas.

As a long term cruiser, and a father, I think that it would be an excellent experience for the kids, like all cruising is, and that would be a strong influence on me if I was in your place. I suppose that it is redundant to suggest that well before your departure date you undertake an offshore passage of a few days or more (apologies if you have already done this). It would give some substance to your imagined conditions for the longer trip.

No one else can make this difficult decision for you, but there are substantial resources here on CF to draw upon, so let us help if we can.

Jim

[Kokanee]

Financially, I think it would be cheaper to fly. Flights are cheap at the moment. I flew Adelaide - Calgary return for 1300 AUD last month. Luggage from a 2nd hand shop will be about $20 each. Don't go for excess luggage, Australia Post is much cheaper. For a family of 4 you'd be looking at about 6-7000 AUD total for one way tickets and mailing a couple hundred kilo's of stuff. The premium you'd get for the boat in Australia would be much more than that even after conversion etc..

but you don't want to hear that. It sounds like you really would prefer to sail back. Do it.

[mischief]

Thanks Jim, no worries

Kokanee
I agree it would be cheaper to fly.
Luggage to ship through post is over $300-$400 per suitcase size. Maybe you found a cheaper way that would be great.

The cheapest way I can find is unaccompanied luggage at about $135/bag plus buying the suitcase and insurance.

Our whole lives would likely fit in 20 suitcases so that's about 10 extra bags. Sounds like a lot but that's 1/4 m3 per bag so 5m3 for a family of 4 20bags all up that's less then 6'x6'X6'. Or about 3k excess vs shipping same size crate at $1600/m3 plus custom and transport costs in Canada or a 20' container door to door for around $10,500 all cleared. Way more space then we need but we could take every thing like all my work tools, my canoe one of my tenders an outboard even our nice wood and bronze cutlery heck whatever we wanted we would have plenty of room.

Now considering I have guitars and sound equipment mountaineering gear dive gear sport and commercial photo albums some clothes a few toys UL camping gear. 20 bags That would be thinned down a lot sheesh that's only 5 bags for each persons entire possession.

But many of the things listed we either can't replace or are things we would want back in Canada and does not make sense to sell and re-buy.
BTW we could fit what we needed to on the boat in fact a lot is aboard already. We've become pretty clever at storing stuff.

Of corse if we were doing a passage then we would be to the gills in water and food etc whenever starting out.

I'm not sure what happened with my previous post it was partially done when it sent and the other half would not go through. Maybe that's a blessing as I'm so long winded.

Lol. Oh what the heck here's some info that was supposed to be in the above response. Feel free to skim or ignore. Lol.

Originally our long term goal was to sail to Canada via Japan Russia Alaska and down. But that's not the way we would go now. Now if we did sail it would be the easiest most direct route.

I would allocate 1.5 yrs to make the journey but that would be in case we got closed out for a season. Ideally I would just hop along staying minimally in each place. Enough to quickly smell some roses. It would be the journey itself as a focus and not as much particular stops that would be the focus.


Size wise we are no problem with the four aboard. As we've been on for a few years and we are adapted to being cooped up for long periods the boat is extremely comfortable. The kids very adaptable.

The Nantucket islander 33 is a very seaworthy boat and this one was made for offshore with extra lead. The sea motion is good and she points quite high for a flush deck model. In 1999 she was prepped for long passages including new spars heavier winches etc. the owner fell I'll and sold it on within a week of departing. I know that's a while ago but the spars were upgraded then and are still great and a vast improvement.
The yacht is heavy laid with long keel and a skeg hung rudder she is solid built and the numbers match closely to a Hallberg Rassey.

I would have to go through my notes but I believe our ballast ratio is around 42% At any regard she is what I consider one of the top balanced boats of heavy duty comfort and maneuverability for a world or coastal cruiser in as small of package that a family of 4 could get away with. Smaller meant Cheaper lifts, marina fees and maintenance.

I was just in a Westsail yesterday that many consider a fairly spacious interior for a 32 and besides not quite as much headroom we have more space everywhere forward of the companionway, we have a much larger V berth larger salon, much bigger U galley I think my Nav area is slightly bigger, walk through head is smaller but then add in a very generous size aft cabin. For feel we have just slightly less room then our neighbors Hallberg 38. A testament to Peter Cole and how well he laid out this boat to fit all that in a 33'. I guess the point is I would take this boat back to Canada and feel more comfortable then a lot of 38' boats out there that are capable.
She is not a typical 33'


Most safety stuff I have does not need replacing but I would need to get a few things. She was certified for offshore racing up until 4 years ago. Many of the safety items are in service or have been updated. She's not a racer but the previous owner wanted to enter the Sydney to Hobart in her and set her up for that.

If we did decide to go we would try and island hop as much as possible to Hawaii then onto North America.

There would also be some value in having that trip, just as any holiday has costs attached.

I know people sail across the pond in lesser boats, people sail big passages with less all the time. But then I think about things like; it would be nice to reinforce and rebuild the rudder just to know its super strong.

I'm really torn.

Lastly at the moment pretty much everything we have worked for is in the boat so if we lost our shirts on it we would end up with whatever money that is at 44 with two kids and nothing else starting all over.

Im not sure the value of our vessel in Canada I've only seen one nice one for sale of the Taiwan built (vs Australia built that I have) and they were asking 81K. Ours is in at least the same caliber and has many higher grade additional items like new custom anodized davits brand new Penta 30 engine, new steering, pedestal, folding lewmar wheel, offshore Peter Cole designed increased ballast, all new wiring lighting refrigeration and panels, upgraded spars, new tankage, all new latex foam and interior less then two yrs old throughout, new Newport bulkhead heater, all new plumbing etc etc. on the other hand the one in Canada has been on the market awhile and is also a very nice example. So not really sure what the market would bear there for a vessel like ours?

Some projects like plumbing are still being completed. We will likely also have new paint, antifoul new dodger, Bimini and covers before it's either sold or we sailed either way.

So much to consider........my head is spinning.....I probably bored every one away too [emoji51]

[RKO]

If it were me, this wouldn't even be a question, given the details you've outlined. Sell the boat and fly home. When you are ready to sail again, you'll find plenty of boats just as nice as that one.

[Kenomac]

You can ship your stuff as freight, it's cheaper that way.

[mischief]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You can ship your stuff as freight, it's cheaper that way.

That's what I thought but I'm finding freight is very expensive. For the size of a suitcase 50cm x 50cm x 100cm actually 155-160cm girth depending on airline 25kg-30kg depending.

I cannot find a cheaper way then $135/bag plus even a new hard suitcase that can be used as storage later for $75 plus insurance. $210. Taking as accompanied pre booked luggage is I believe around $150/bag but then it's 155cm girth and 25kg max.

Cheapest freight I can find so far is Australia post economy. 20kg max girth 140cm for $183.

So that's more per kg and smaller size to fit stuff in. Plus with airline you can sell the bag for $25 or use for storage. So that's even cheaper.

Although freight would be simple and easy. Just post it right to my Mom's. Before hand.

When we moved here my wife and I had 9 extra bags and it was a handful at the airport but doable. You just have to be totally organized.

I'm hoping there is cheaper ways of getting bigger items back to Canada then that though. If anyone knows we are trying to really consider all the costs on both sides of the coin so we can make the best choice for our family.

I figured sea freighting a 3-4m3 crate would be the cheapest but its flat rate near $1700/m3 up to customs port of entry and then whatever fees to clear and ship the rest of the way on top.

There's got to be a better way......

[StuM]

Have you checked airlines "unaccompanied baggage" rates.

Alternatively, you could try one of these:
Jetta Excess Baggage - Rate Comparison
Excess Baggage is Affordable Over Commercial Airlines

[AiniA]

We are Canadians and lived in the US on a boat we bought in the US and registered in Canada. We then went off cruising for several years before moving back to Canada and importing the boat. We had to pay HST and would have had to pay duty (9%) except out boat was made in the US and no duty was paid because of NAFTA. I think that financially you would be much better off selling the boat in Oz and flying back.

I think going from Oz to Hawaii to BC would be a very hard voyage since so much of it would be to windward. The easier (not easy) way would be to head to Japan and then in a big loop towards Alaska and BC. This route means you would have much more favourable winds and currents although it is a very long way and cool and damp from Japan onward.

[aclmck]

Originally Posted by mischief

That's what I thought but I'm finding freight is very expensive. For the size of a suitcase 50cm x 50cm x 100cm actually 155-160cm girth depending on airline 25kg-30kg depending.

I cannot find a cheaper way then $135/bag plus even a new hard suitcase that can be used as storage later for $75 plus insurance. $210. Taking as accompanied pre booked luggage is I believe around $150/bag but then it's 155cm girth and 25kg max.

Cheapest freight I can find so far is Australia post economy. 20kg max girth 140cm for $183.

So that's more per kg and smaller size to fit stuff in. Plus with airline you can sell the bag for $25 or use for storage. So that's even cheaper.

Although freight would be simple and easy. Just post it right to my Mom's. Before hand.

When we moved here my wife and I had 9 extra bags and it was a handful at the airport but doable. You just have to be totally organized.

I'm hoping there is cheaper ways of getting bigger items back to Canada then that though. If anyone knows we are trying to really consider all the costs on both sides of the coin so we can make the best choice for our family.

I figured sea freighting a 3-4m3 crate would be the cheapest but its flat rate near $1700/m3 up to customs port of entry and then whatever fees to clear and ship the rest of the way on top.

There's got to be a better way......

try looking at Pack and Send, type people where they will send all of your gear with other peoples gear in a container which is full, you then don't pay for a part load you will be sharing a full loaded box and its so much cheaper, also as k which port in the country is the best bang for your buck even to USA you may be able to drive with a small van and it will get cheaper again, i have shipped to Europe this way and instead of going to france we had it shipped to southhampton as more ships go there from aus it was 40% cheaper than anywhere in france then we drove it to where we needed it. so try and find out if northern Usa or Canada have a regular shipping route to aus and look at getting it to there. it may also mean that it will need to leave from a different port than you may think,ours was from Sydney and we live in Qld. Sea freight is the cheapest by far but it can take 4-8 weeks depending on the ship to get to the port then it MUST be cleared quickly or further cost are possible

[Sea Dreaming]

You can ship belongings via ship freight. We are packing a bunch for my boy friends kids, USA to Holland. It's less expensive than air route, but does take longer.
Also, consider what you really need to ship. There is "stuff" all over the world. In many cases the shipping costs can out strip the costs of buying new at your next destination. Kids out grow clothes, for example. Ithe may not be best to ship excess clothing as, when they are in your possession again, the clothes may not fit. Toys too tend to have transitory value, what engrosses your child today may be ignored tomorrow.
There is really nothing that cannot be replaced except history and memories. It's just a thought. I realize there is a lot to consider and uprooting your family for a new country is difficult enough without changing the "stuff" that makes up their lives.

If it were me, I would take the time to cruise with your family and ship only what can not be replaced or carried. 10,000 will buy a lot of new stuff!

Having "downsized" often in my life I can honestly say that nothing I've disposed of has given me more than a momentary nostalgia for its "loss". Of course there are things you personally value that have function that may not be replaceable. Those are the things to keep.

Of course every person has a different idea of what is "irreplaceable " so I am in no way trying to suggest my way is best.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Pardon my bluntness but reading your posts, I think you're conflicted not because of the boat or finances.

Finances are clear. It is cheaper to fly and ship goods/replace goods. Boat is sunk cost at this point and you'll make off with more if you sell now and find another later. Refitting to take it to a boat rich market doesn't make "financial sense"

Given the reasons you've given re getting the family to Canada, time is the only asset you cant buy more of.

The real decision you have to make is whether you want to be in Canada sooner - or take your time and have a sailing adventure with the family. If you're aiming for the west coast of Canada, I'll almost recommend exploring northern routes via Malaysia/Vietnam/Taiwan/Japan then crossing to Alaska. Trying to hop from Australia to Canada W-E just seems like an awful slog.