Sail VS Power

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Of course I know they do. However, to chose a powerboat for ocean crossing one must be either super rich or very impractical person. Or both. In addition to an immunity to the seasickness (helpful when the stabilizers quit). I don’t know the statistics, but guessing the ratio of sail to power in pleasure boats crossing oceans is at least 100 to 1. Maybe 1000 to 1.

As Simi60 insinuates, this is over-stated or at least requires some context. But I do agree with some basic underlying concepts: If you are on an ultra-low budget or your cruising itinerary includes crossing oceans, there are relatively fewer options for a powerboat than a sailboat, at least for a middle-income cruising sailor/aspirant common on CF.

I suspect the majority of cruisers (perhaps vast majority) on forums such as this are not on shoe-string budgets and are perfectly content with serious coastal cruising such as anything between Alaska and Maine including the Bahamas, East/West Caribbean (or the equivalent in other regions of the world). For those cruising grounds, there are many affordable options in the trawler ranks (e.g. in the $100k range, with a decent selection in the $70k range), and long term operating costs are not materially dissimilar from a sailboat. So it becomes a personal decision on which platform you prefer. There are benefits/drawbacks to each, so just depends on how you value the tradeoffs.

Peter

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Just because all the sheep go one way does not make them right.

Am I the only one who finds this response arrogant?

For those who believe that power boats are well suited for crossing oceans I recommend finding and watching a Nordhavn video of their cross-atlantic rally.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I suspect the majority of cruisers (perhaps vast majority) on forums such as this are not on shoe-string budgets and are perfectly content with serious coastal cruising such as anything between Alaska and Maine including the Bahamas, East/West Caribbean (or the equivalent in other regions of the world).

I completely agree that for this type of application power boats are more practical than sailboats regardless of budget. Which is one of the reasons or the reason why some aging sailors eventually switch to a trawlers or motor yachts.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Am I the only one who finds this response arrogant?

No. Contextually cruisersforum (vs trawlerforum) is predominantly populated by sailing types in boats <200k, most probably <<100k (save the catamarans). A frigate owner stating the obvious doesn't lend much.

Otherwise not mentioned in this thread is a motorsailer. 2000nm range at 7.5 knots using 60% less fuel than a trawler isn't to be ignored, particularly when the MS can be procured at <1/3 the price of an entry-level seagoing trawler (Willard notwithstanding). Under sail the motorsailer's diesel supply can last for years (read electricity) while the motorsailer scurries about, if slowly at times (but faster than drifting in a trawler).

Horses for courses.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Am I the only one who finds this response arrogant?.

Yeah, I think you are.
I was merely pointing out that just because the majority goes one way does not make it the only way.
It just proves there is herd mentality

But let's not forget your original comment

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
The sole advantage of a sailboat over a power yacht is an ability to cross oceans

Arrogance?

For those who believe that power boats are well suited for crossing oceans I recommend finding and watching a Nordhavn video of their cross-atlantic rally

I never for a second implied that a powered vessel is "the best" vessel or "only" vessel for crossing an ocean, merely that they can and do and most do it comfortably

To use one bad example to try and prove your point would be as disingenuous as me using the Queen's Birthday storm or any yachts bad crossing as an example as why sailing vessels are unsuitable for crossing oceans.

Sailing vessels can and do cross oceans as well, most do it comfortably.
Some get the absolute sh1te kicked out of them as well.
And more often than not they are rescued by a ......wait for it..........a powered vessel.

[DanCan]

I’m new (ish) here and i was hoping this wasn’t the us vs them...
Sailboats and powerboats are great, to each its own.
I follow this forum and a bit of trawlers forum. Each has positive things, we all love cruising and we all love boats.
My preference are sailboats but I don’t find the need to antagonize.
If a trawler breaks, a fellow sailboat will be willing to help too. No need to be an as**.
Cheers, fair winds and safe cruising!

[Woodland Hills]

The only times I’ve seen sailboats actually sailing (with the motor off) was in the Chesapeake and the Bahamas. The rest of the time they are just motoring along with a sail up for right of way purposes. It looks like you give up a lot for that one good day a month when you can sail for a few hours.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

The only times I’ve seen sailboats actually sailing (with the motor off) was in the Chesapeake and the Bahamas. The rest of the time they are just motoring along with a sail up for right of way purposes. It looks like you give up a lot for that one good day a month when you can sail for a few hours.

this very likely true, however it's a big world out there and looks like you need to get out a bit more. the sailing boats we see tend to do a bit more than that.

that having been said, it's true there is also an awful lot of people with sailboats who use them like motorboats. "why" is one of those psychological questions isn't it

(oh, and a boat motoring with sails up is a motor boat and not entitled to right of way)

cheers,

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

The only times I’ve seen sailboats actually sailing (with the motor off) was in the Chesapeake and the Bahamas. The rest of the time they are just motoring along with a sail up for right of way purposes. It looks like you give up a lot for that one good day a month when you can sail for a few hours.

I spent most of my recreational boating in San Francisco. Granted it blows a consistent 20-25 kts most afternoons so sailing is fantastic (and wet and cold), but very few sailboats motoring. Similar in SoCal. I'm in Florida now and motoring is a bit more common, but still vast majority are no-motor sailing (there's even a guy who single hands a 40-footer all the time in the ICW!). Maybe cruised are different - finding some wind but not too much seems to be challenging and I'm sure leads to more motoring than they'd like.

I really appreciate DanCan's comment about espirit de corps among Sailors and powerboaters. We tend to highlight the differences but in the end, more similarities than differences. And when the chips are down, vast majority follow mariners code of assistance regardless of choice of propulsion.

[mlydon]

To the OP....

Most of the items you describe are certainly available and installed on plenty of sailboats. Vacu-flush, inverters, gensets, watermakers, and so on.

My own boat has a fresh-water flush electric head, the shower is indeed an automatic sump, I have an inverter, genset, etc.

The MAIN attraction to sailboats is the CHALLENGE. I don't cruise around with the motor on and the sails up for 'right of way' - stupid way to wear out your sails. I sail for the challenge of traveling using the wind.

I did a run last summer from Newport RI to Vinyardhaven on Martha's Vineyard in 15-20kts, didn't touch the engine until entering the harbor. Another from Fisher's Island to Port Jeff on one tack in record time. Those are the days I talk about when asked about my vacation - not the time in harbor. Once there, I have power, refrig, ac, hot water, all that jazz, just like a powerboater. Both trips took an entire day. Powerboater could have been there in a couple of hours. our amenities are the same. But the CHALLENGE of sailing there was for me, as well as the peace and quiet. Yes, it can be nice to get there really fast, but if that's the goal, why not fly in? The whole point is being on the water, right? and if you're blasting away at 30kts, you're not actually DOING anything other than blasting away.

Face it - powerboats are boring, unless you're into fishing. Plus you're tied to the fuel dock, can't do anything without the genset running, etc.

PS - I covered about 800 miles on my vacation cruise last year, plus all season's sailing, and put MAYBE 100 gallons of diesel in my tank in total, at $3 a gallon. Try THAT in your powerboat ;-)

Matt

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

The sole advantage of a sailboat over a power yacht is an ability to cross oceans. .

Well, no.


Other advantages besides range:


1. Compared size for size, far better motion and far better seaworthiness. Even with a size difference. Even with stabilizers working, my friend's 100 foot motor yacht is far less comfortable in choppy seas than my 54' sailboat. Anything over F6 is "no go" for him; F8 is "brisk sailing" for us.



2. The whole magic of sailing. Those of you who know what it is, need no explanation. Those who don't -- no explanation will help. This is the main reason most of us have sailboats rather than power.



3. Efficiency. Maybe a well designed power cat can come close to the efficiency of a sailboat hull (mono or cat), but not any other kind of power boat.



What is not an advantage:


1. Cost. You think the wind is free, but sails are not. The bigger the sailboat, the more expensive it is to run per mile, and with good sails replaced at reasonable interval it gets more expensive than diesel fuel real fast.




I'm not selling sailboats -- I love power boats too, and don't question anyone's desire to have one. But this statement about range being the only advantage is really false.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mlydon

To the OP....

Most of the items you describe are certainly available and installed on plenty of sailboats. Vacu-flush, inverters, gensets, watermakers, and so on.. . .

I'd like to second that.


The spartan features of the OP's sailboat are not universal with sailboats. As someone else posted, he could automatically get everything he is used to having on power boats, by buying a catamaran.



But decently equipped monos will have all the things he misses. My boat has 230v electrical outlets all over the boat, inverter, heavy duty generator, two full-sized walk in separate showers, two gray water tanks with automatic discharge, two full sized domestic type toilets, washer/dryer, and a nice view over the anchorage from the raised salon. Doesn't have a dishwasher, but that's just about the only missing comfort.



"Spartan" is not characteristic of either sail or power boats. It is characteristic of smaller and/or cheaper boats of either type.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by mlydon

To the OP....

Most of the items you describe are certainly available and installed on plenty of sailboats. Vacu-flush, inverters, gensets, watermakers, and so on.

My own boat has a fresh-water flush electric head, the shower is indeed an automatic sump, I have an inverter, genset, etc.

The MAIN attraction to sailboats is the CHALLENGE. I don't cruise around with the motor on and the sails up for 'right of way' - stupid way to wear out your sails. I sail for the challenge of traveling using the wind.

I did a run last summer from Newport RI to Vinyardhaven on Martha's Vineyard in 15-20kts, didn't touch the engine until entering the harbor. Another from Fisher's Island to Port Jeff on one tack in record time. Those are the days I talk about when asked about my vacation - not the time in harbor. Once there, I have power, refrig, ac, hot water, all that jazz, just like a powerboater. Both trips took an entire day. Powerboater could have been there in a couple of hours. our amenities are the same. But the CHALLENGE of sailing there was for me, as well as the peace and quiet. Yes, it can be nice to get there really fast, but if that's the goal, why not fly in? The whole point is being on the water, right? and if you're blasting away at 30kts, you're not actually DOING anything other than blasting away.

Face it - powerboats are boring, unless you're into fishing. Plus you're tied to the fuel dock, can't do anything without the genset running, etc.

PS - I covered about 800 miles on my vacation cruise last year, plus all season's sailing, and put MAYBE 100 gallons of diesel in my tank in total, at $3 a gallon. Try THAT in your powerboat ;-)

Matt

800 nms in my powerboat would take around 140 gallons. As far as the CHALLENGE,, to each their own. When I did the 800 nms Baja Ha Ha in 2004 aboard a friend's Willard, we were one of four powerboats in a fleet of 160. I forget exactly, but the legs are 300 nms or so. Despite the fact we only did 7 kts, we beat all but the big racing sleds into the anchorage. Vast majority of the Sailors who straggled in over a day and a half looked like they'd had their fill of CHALLENGE and then some. They must have had a ball out there because they slept for 15-hours straight.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Something to ponder and was our thought process when choosing what we have.
The same would be if we decided a 50ft motor vessel was big enough, a 60ft+ yacht would be the fair comparison.

Q) How large would a sailing vessel have to be to offer the comforts and space we enjoy now?
A) From anything we have seen I reckon 70ft+

Q) How much would that vessel cost to purchase and maintain?
A) From what we have seen, for a similar aged timber vessel at least 5x more - plastic, going up to the moon.
That extra outlay for the sailing vessel buys us enough diesel and paid maintenance to travel the globe several times if so inclined
Maintenance on the larger yacht, being bigger would likely be more and extra needed to be found on top of purchase price.

Q) What size engine would that sailing vessel have?
A) probably not much smaller than what we have or at least, use now.
At cruise of 7.5 knots we use approx 90hp I am sure a 75ft sailing vessel would use every bit of that.

Q) Would a couple be able to handle the sails on that vessel?
A) Most likely not. Motoring would be a lot more often than not.

One thoughtful and important thing about this post is that you can't compare different types of vessels according to their length. You should compare them by their hull volumes. So a 45' catamaran is kind of like a 55' mono, and trawlers might be closer to cats of their own length.


When you compare this way you find out that there is much less difference between different types of vessels than seems at first glance, especially what concerns cost.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

2. The whole magic of sailing. Those of you who know what it is, need no explanation. Those who don't -- no explanation will help.

We have raced, cruised, lived on for extended periods both cats and monos for most of our life.
There is a magic undoubtedly
but being on the water is more where the magic was for us.
To get everything WE wanted for a comfortable fulltime liveaboard life away from marinas and civilisation was pretty much unattainable for us in sail, but far easier in power.

This is the main reason most of us have sailboats rather than power.

I suspect there is more to it than that.
Many simply follow the herd and believe all the misconceptions without doing research or running the numbers themselves.
I did for near 30 years.
Then I ran the numbers again and again and again.

3. Efficiency. Maybe a well designed power cat can come close to the efficiency of a sailboat hull (mono or cat), but not any other kind of power boat.

If the only measure of efficiency is fuel burn you are probably right.
If you add cost into the equation it is possible to better a powercat with a monohulled power vessel.

The very best of cruising powercats similar in size to us uses about 1.5 litre/nm @ 7.5kn but even second hand it would cost 9x or more in aud to buy it.
Sure, its newer, built in foam and shineyer but still 9x more to buy.

We use 2 litres/nm and have a lifetime of diesel and paid maintenance built in compared to that cat.
Plenty of 6lxb powered Gardner converted trawlers get closer to the mythical 1 litre/nm

Of course if you are using a large Nordhavn or Dashew FPB as an example as to what a mono hulled power vessel is then those numbers get blown out of the water and that particular cat would likely be way out in front again.

What is not an advantage:

1. Cost. You think the wind is free, but sails are not. The bigger the sailboat, the more expensive it is to run per mile, and with good sails replaced at reasonable interval it gets more expensive than diesel fuel real fast.

Quoted for truth.