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Old 26-02-2020, 13:19   #16
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Re: Sail VS Power

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
To answer the question of why? I'm sure the sailboaters know already, but being able to cross an ocean. Not being chained to a 100 mile radius of a fuel dock. Never running out of gas. .

.
By gas do you mean petrol?
I would have thought you'd use diesel for propulsion?

If its gas for cooking, we carry 4 x 9kg bottles, that lasts us about 1 year as full time cruisers.

We also carry 7000 litres of diesel, enough to 3500nm @ 7.5 knots
More than enough for crossing oceans.

You had the wrong boat, obviously.
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Old 26-02-2020, 13:21   #17
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Re: Sail VS Power

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You seriously believe powered vessels can't cross oceans?

They do it all the time.

Yeah they do, but it’s not practical at the lower end of the price range.

I have acquaintances that took a Nordhaven 46 RTW. $59k just for fuel. They didn’t push the speed, I recall they averaged 6kt.
Fuel economy was somewhere around 3mpg.
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Old 26-02-2020, 13:22   #18
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Re: Sail VS Power

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Yeah they do, but it’s not practical at the lower end of the price range.

I have acquaintances that took a Nordhaven 46 RTW. $59k just for fuel. They didn’t push the speed, I recall they averaged 6kt.
Fuel economy was somewhere around 3mpg.
Your friends crossed oceans on a 46ft boat with 2000nm range
Proves it can be done
But a Nordhaven is not a requirement to do so.

I'll just leave this here.
Quote:
Briggs completed his first circumnavigation (1977–80) in a 53-foot trawler named Champion, which set the record at the time as the smallest motoryacht to do so. He also circumnavigated in Neptune’s Chariot, a Knight & Carver 75, (1981–84) and in Chartwell, a 55-foot Cheoy Lee trawler, (1998–2003).

https://www.passagemaker.com/channel...iggs-1940-2013
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Old 26-02-2020, 13:23   #19
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Re: Sail VS Power

Out of all of the boats out there, I'd say the proportion of sailboats that can be made to readily handle an ocean crossing is much more than the proportion of powerboats. Mostly due to stability and range. Basically, quite a few of the things that make a boat good at sailing also make it good at offshore work, provided it's not built too lightly in search of every last bit of speed.
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Old 26-02-2020, 15:13   #20
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Re: Sail VS Power

Actually, trawlers are functional and they have their place. I have always admired how they can go in any direction, make 150 nm per day easily and be super comfortable.

It is just that power boats look sleek (design + the image of naked women on board , sailboats are cool and silent and trawlers are like hmm, I do not know, old fishing vessels? They are still power boats though
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Old 26-02-2020, 15:21   #21
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Re: Sail VS Power

I think the main point about the ocean crossing thing is price. You can cross oceans or sail around the world in a sailboat for a lot less money than you can in a motor boat. And you can obviously have a sailboat with a lot of room, comfort, and amenities. Suggesting that only motor boats can be comfortable is just as disingenuous as making a blanket statement that only sailboats can cross oceans. But there's a price to all of it, and from everything I've seen, for the same comfort/quality level, doing it with a sailboat is a lot cheaper, especially as the miles stack up.
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Old 26-02-2020, 17:56   #22
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Re: Sail VS Power

Agree that if crossing an ocean is the criteria, easier/cheaper to find a capable sailboat than a powerboat. For every other type of cruising - Maine to Alaska for example, it's personal preference. There was a 40-foot single engine trawler recently listed on this site where the owner had just completed a 2-year cruise from California to Florida and burned roughly $12k in diesel plus 3-4 oil changes along the way. Asking price was $59k and it was probably ready to return to California with minimal effort. Since Sailors often motor (25%? 50%?) and wear and tear on sails, running rigging, and standing rigging is non-zero, the cost premium for an efficient powerboat reduces substantially. Given all the other costs in cruising for 2-years , the cost difference might be negligible for many cruisers.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just saying that unless your goal is to cross an ocean, it's a personal preference in whether you prefer cruising under sail or power.

BTW, a sistership to my Willard 36 went from San Diego to Hawaii in 1987 in about 15 days. Not sure when, but she also returned on her own bottom. That's about 2300 nms and she burned 330 gallons of diesel. These are $100k boats.
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:33   #23
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Re: Sail VS Power

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Originally Posted by Muaddib1116 View Post
I think the main point about the ocean crossing thing is price. You can cross oceans or sail around the world in a sailboat for a lot less money than you can in a motor boat. And you can obviously have a sailboat with a lot of room, comfort, and amenities. Suggesting that only motor boats can be comfortable is just as disingenuous as making a blanket statement that only sailboats can cross oceans. But there's a price to all of it, and from everything I've seen, for the same comfort/quality level, doing it with a sailboat is a lot cheaper, especially as the miles stack up.
Something to ponder and was our thought process when choosing what we have.
The same would be if we decided a 50ft motor vessel was big enough, a 60ft+ yacht would be the fair comparison.

Q) How large would a sailing vessel have to be to offer the comforts and space we enjoy now?
A) From anything we have seen I reckon 70ft+

Q) How much would that vessel cost to purchase and maintain?
A) From what we have seen, for a similar aged timber vessel at least 5x more - plastic, going up to the moon.
That extra outlay for the sailing vessel buys us enough diesel and paid maintenance to travel the globe several times if so inclined
Maintenance on the larger yacht, being bigger would likely be more and extra needed to be found on top of purchase price.

Q) What size engine would that sailing vessel have?
A) probably not much smaller than what we have or at least, use now.
At cruise of 7.5 knots we use approx 90hp I am sure a 75ft sailing vessel would use every bit of that.

Q) Would a couple be able to handle the sails on that vessel?
A) Most likely not. Motoring would be a lot more often than not.
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:34   #24
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Re: Sail VS Power

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...Given all the other costs in cruising for 2-years , the cost difference might be negligible for many cruisers.
Not many have done RTW or near-RTW passages in both types, but Dashew has and his take was that the costs of both are about even.

Now it's usual for people to say they can get away with much less for one type or the other in their personal world/opinion... WHEN you've got 8 years of figures for sailing around the world, and now more years of figures for motoring over this planet, AND your findings are different, THEN you can dis Dashew's findings
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:51   #25
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Re: Sail VS Power

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Not many have done RTW or near-RTW passages in both types, but Dashew has and his take was that the costs of both are about even.

Now it's usual for people to say they can get away with much less for one type or the other in their personal world/opinion... WHEN you've got 8 years of figures for sailing around the world, and now more years of figures for motoring over this planet, AND your findings are different, THEN you can dis Dashew's findings
The folks on the bumfuzzle blog, who circumnavigated under sail (35 foot cat) prior to buying a Grand Banks 42 to cruise the Bahamas and western Caribbean, said more or less the same thing - cost difference between sail and power were negligible. Though their boat is not an ocean crossing boat. As far as the Dashews, comparing multi million dollar boats is ratified air in boats. I do think the general statement for audiences such as this hold: finding a sailboat with pedigree to cross an ocean on a budget is a helluva lot easier than a power boat. There just aren't many suitable powerboats in the 40-50 size range to chose from.
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:54   #26
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Re: Sail VS Power

To add to what's been said about costs, the powerboats being expensive to run thing mostly comes from faster powerboats. If you're ok with going sailboat speed, it doesn't take much fuel. But if you want to get there faster, range for long trips becomes a serious problem and fuel costs rapidly become "a lot"
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Old 26-02-2020, 18:58   #27
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Re: Sail VS Power

For average cruising boat size sailboats are cheaper.

For boats above 60ft the cost claimed equal but is not:

1) they don't consider doing all your own work and salvaging material and using inexpensive rig like galvanized wire. For example, this can cut the cost of rigging to a fraction of what it would be. It is technically also possible to salvage fuel but it's not dependable or readily available.

2) don't properly deduct the cost of the engine, propeller, and all maintenance of it. A sailboat with an engine is still a powerboat.

3) do not consider the real cost burning fuel has to our future. For this reason powerboats will always cost more than sailboats.
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Old 26-02-2020, 19:18   #28
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Re: Sail VS Power

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3) do not consider the real cost burning fuel has to our future. For this reason powerboats will always cost more than sailboats.



Because resins, smelting alloy for masts, making plastic sails etc has zero effect on the environment.
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Old 26-02-2020, 19:59   #29
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Re: Sail VS Power

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You seriously believe powered vessels can't cross oceans?
They do it all the time.
Of course I know they do. However, to chose a powerboat for ocean crossing one must be either super rich or very impractical person. Or both. In addition to an immunity to the seasickness (helpful when the stabilizers quit). I don’t know the statistics, but guessing the ratio of sail to power in pleasure boats crossing oceans is at least 100 to 1. Maybe 1000 to 1.
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Old 27-02-2020, 04:20   #30
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Re: Sail VS Power

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Of course I know they do. However, to chose a powerboat for ocean crossing one must be either super rich or very impractical person.
Not if comparing apples with apples.
Sure, if I want to cross an ocean in a smaller vessel it can be done relatively cheaply but if you had read the few posts before this you will see if you go up a size or two, its not so cut and dried.

I am not super rich - I went with what we have because it is far better bang for buck than sail with comparable comfort levels.
Clearly, that would make me a very practical person.


Quote:

Or both. In addition to an immunity to the seasickness (helpful when the stabilizers quit).
I've done several open ocean crossings of 1000nm+
None of the on vessels with stabilisers
No one got seasick.
Pick your times, be prepared to wait for the right window.
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. I don’t know the statistics, but guessing the ratio of sail to power in pleasure boats crossing oceans is at least 100 to 1. Maybe 1000 to 1.
Just because all the sheep go one way does not make them right.
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