Rudder Failures

[malbert73]

Well, I stepped away from the thread for a few days to work and -gasp- actually sail, and all I can say is, the owners of the mass produced boats on this thread have nothing to worry about. Their boats will last an eternity if they continue to spend this much time posting and reaearching on CF!!


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[smackdaddy]

Hey - you gotta do something to pass the time while your employees are working.

[malbert73]

And I wonder why some people label sailors as elitist...


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[avb3]

Originally Posted by colemj

Are you serious???

Mark

Well he heard all the dissing of 5200.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by colemj

Going back to the cutting cost by using Plexus thing - has anyone priced Plexus? That stuff costs ~$100 USD per TUBE! Seems like one tube costs the same as 2 laminators - and it would take 2-3 tubes to do a bulkhead.

Minaret - is this stuff a LOT less expensive to professionals than it is in retail? I mean like 10x less?

Mark

Yes, it is. And Plexus is far from the only methacrylate on the market.

[jimbunyard]

Um, Smackdaddy, you wouldn't happen to be a lawyer in your spare time would you?

[Polux]

Another "cheap" high tech brand that on new boats used bonded bulkheads, or should I say glued?

J boats and its highly successful J111 racer:

• All bulkeads are laminated or glued to both the hull and deck.
• Main bulkhead is a high strength sandwich moulding, it is glued to
both the hull and deck.
http://www.jcomposites.eu/media/spec...6_09102012.pdf

and on the also new J108 while the intermediate bulkheads are glassed to the hull, the main is bonded:

• GRP moulded structural main bulkhead bonded to hull and deck
• All intermediate bulkheads glassed to hull
and deck for stiffness "
http://www.jcomposites.eu/media/spec...3_20022012.pdf

On older boats we can see they used only lamination. On a very expensive boat the use of bonding agents versus tabing on the main bulkhead can only be due to a better performance of the new materials versus what they used before.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Um, Smackdaddy, you wouldn't happen to be a lawyer in your spare time would you?

HEHEHEHE,,,, nah , its fixing things in the Hunter....

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

On older boats we can see they used only lamination. On a very expensive boat the use of bonding agents versus tabing on the main bulkhead can only be due to a better performance of the new materials versus what they used before.

You keep telling yourself that. The funny part is you actually seem to believe it! Based on what, I wonder? J boats are a notoriously problematic brand, I fix a LOT of them. Money in no way guarantees quality.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by minaret

Yes, it is. And Plexus is far from the only methacrylate on the market.

I understand that, but Plexus is specifically what we have been talking about here.

BTW, looking through the Plexus product line, I cannot find any of them with green color. Lots of other colors - but no green. They seem to be strangely specific about what colors each product comes in.

Do you think the "green snot" in all the pictures posted so far is Plexus?

Does anyone actually know for sure what it is?

Mark

[transmitterdan]

A few years ago didn't a J boat on the US west coast sink beneath a race crew in only a few minutes when the rudder ripped a huge hole in the hull? I seem to recall the structural issues were similar to another boat in the Atlantic that lost a rudder and sank. In the J boat case they theorized a whale surfaced beneath the boat but there was no way to be sure.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by colemj

I understand that, but Plexus is specifically what we have been talking about here.

BTW, looking through the Plexus product line, I cannot find any of them with green color. Lots of other colors - but no green. They seem to be strangely specific about what colors each product comes in.

Do you think the "green snot" in all the pictures posted so far is Plexus?

Does anyone actually know for sure what it is?

Mark

Industrial materials are often made and packaged completely differently than retail. I doubt you can even find most industrial methacrylate supplies on line. Production methacrylate is generally applied from a very large pneumatic dual cartridge gun with a mixing wand. The cartridges are huge.


As to NP's pic, just look at what that model of boat states they use for bonding bulkheads.





http://www.itwplexus.com/UserFiles/F...ectorGuide.pdf




Note: The above list represents a portion of the ITW Plexus adhesives product line. Others are available that may suit your needs. Please consult an ITW Plexus Sales Representative or ITW Plexus Technical Service for further assistance at 1-800-851-6692.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

A few years ago didn't a J boat on the US west coast sink beneath a race crew in only a few minutes when the rudder ripped a huge hole in the hull? I seem to recall the structural issues were similar to another boat in the Atlantic that lost a rudder and sank. In the J boat case they theorized a whale surfaced beneath the boat but there was no way to be sure.

Originally Posted by minaret

You keep telling yourself that. The funny part is you actually seem to believe it! Based on what, I wonder? J boats are a notoriously problematic brand, I fix a LOT of them. Money in no way guarantees quality.

Funny how Americans that like old shoes say badly about what is the American Brand with more success along the years simply because it makes modern boats. Many American brands bankrupt or almost don't sale boats while Jboats is the only one that has a factory in Europe and sell lots of boats there. Off course all that because they sell expensive boats with lots of problems

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Funny how Americans that like old shoes say badly about what is the American Brand with more success along the years simply because it makes modern boats. Many American brands bankrupt or almost don't sale boats while Jboats is the only one that has a factory in Europe and sell lots of boats there. Off course all that because they sell expensive boats with lots of problems

Its because Jboats have lots of keel and rudder problems in the past, dont mix Americans with this topic please, make no sense, lots of well crafted USA boats are sailing around the world , without mention the NA genius from the past or present like S&S, Ted Hood, Perry designs, maybe they are bankrupt because they dont want to make piles of dogshit and instead they choose to close doors?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Polux

Funny how Americans that like old shoes say badly about what is the American Brand with more success along the years simply because it makes modern boats. Many American brands bankrupt or almost don't sale boats while Jboats is the only one that has a factory in Europe and sell lots of boats there. Off course all that because they sell expensive boats with lots of problems

I've never gotten the impression from reading Minaret's many threads & posts -- or any of the other obviously well qualified & experienced technicians who frequent this forum -- that their opinions may be biased towards boats that are built in the US or anywhere else. Instead, their criteria always seems based on quality of workmanship & sound, proven design, something which I find indispensible as a boat owner w/o much of a technical background.

Is your doggedly determined defense of European designed & built boats influenced by their country or region of origin? And what makes you think new boat buyers make rational decisions? Isn't it all too often more about whether the boat is "fast," "looks like" a racing boat, or has all sorts of amenities below? Wealthy or not, I would think these factors are much more dominant amongst new boat buyers vs. rudder configurations or how bulkheads are installed. I also think this more likely accounts for the success of certain brands over others, not the supposed higher quality of new construction processes, materials, or designs as you (and SmackDaddy) claim.

But then again I've never been one for putting that much stock in sales brochures & videos, whether it's for a boat or a tube of Plexus. I'd rather listen to the pros who repair, upgrade & maintain them, as opposed to marketing people or even engineers, architects & designers who justifiably may have other factors to take into account (e.g. cost, amenities, appearance) than quality of workmanship & sound nautical design.