Rudder Failures

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Neil for god's sake take it easy on these guys, one's on the ropes the other is out on the mat....1,2,3,4.....

Yep, i give it up, no matter if i jump today in a 2014 505 hanse and take pictures they are keep going with the same song.
Peace and sorry...

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yep, i give it up, no matter if i jump today in a 2014 505 hanse and take pictures they are keep going with the same song.
Peace and sorry...

In just reading through this, I think Polux's point was that this method is used on their bigger boats - but not the smaller ones.

I don't, therefore, think he's arguing that the 505 does not use the more robust method. And the marketing piece from the website you linked to doesn't specific which boats get what either.

But when you compare the spec sheets for the 345 to the 505 - you definitely see a difference in specification:

345
HULL
-White hull
-Dark grey double waterlines
-Options for different hull colour according to Hanse colour selection
-Isophatalic Gelcoat
-Vinylester 1st layer
-Bulk laminate Polyester (orthophtalic or DCPD)
-Solid construction
-Bulkheads laminated to hull
-GRP strongback

505
HULL
- White hull
- Dark grey double waterlines
- Options for different hull colours according to Hanse colour selection
- Isophtalic gelcoat
- Vinylester for all outer laminates
- Balsa sandwich above waterline
- Polyester inner laminate (orthophtalic or DCPD)
- Main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck
- GRP strongback
- Horizontal Hull windows

So - unless I'm missing something, I don't think things are as clear-cut to the reader as you guys think they are. And Polux's point is still valid according to the spec sheets.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

In just reading through this, I think Polux's point was that this method is used on their bigger boats - but not the smaller ones.

I don't, therefore, think he's arguing that the 505 does not use the more robust method. And the marketing piece from the website you linked to doesn't specific which boats get what either.

So - unless I'm missing something, I don't think things are as clear-cut to the reader as you guys think they are.

Humm nop, sorry the specifications for the 385 and the smaller models say the same, laminated bulkheads , is not so hard to get it, Hanse dont rely in modular interior construction, , no plexus grid liners here , then there is no way to attach modular bulkheads with only glue, if you guys read well, Hanse is really proud to build like this way, even they glass to the deck, and the new Arcona style beam in epoxy and glass comfirm that they want stiff and strong boats .
Maybe im wrong who know?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Humm nop, sorry the specifications for the 385 and the smaller models say the same, laminated bulkheads , is not so hard to get it, Hanse dont rely in modular interior construction, , no plexus grid liners here , then there is no way to attach modular bulkheads with only glue, if you guys read well, Hanse is really proud to build like this way, even they glass to the deck, and the new Arcona style beam in epoxy and glass comfirm that they want stiff and strong boats .
Maybe im wrong who know?

I don't think anyone is arguing that the bulkheads are not laminated. They just don't seem to be laminated all the way around in the 345 as this sentence from your link states:

A Hanse hull is built by hand which when strength is a priority is the only way. The hugely thick bulkheads are fully laminated to both the hull and the deck too. It takes more time than the common "floating" bulkhead approach but again is integral to the strength of the boat so has to be done.

The 505 specs are very clear and line up with your paragraph above. The 345 specs don't.

So, again, I don't know what the actual truth is, but there is certainly some conflicting information in the various documents.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

You see!! still on that?
Looks like embarrasing for you, think about it?

Hanse 505 specs.
- White hull
- Dark grey double waterlines
- Options for different hull colours according to Hanse colour selection
- Isophtalic gelcoat
- Vinylester for all outer laminates
- Balsa sandwich above waterline
- Polyester inner laminate (orthophtalic or DCPD)
- Main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck
- GRP strongback
- Horizontal Hull windows

Hanse 505,sail magazine review, and i dont want to be rude, i dont believe what they say it in this magazines reviews, its a fact..
Pure Marketing.
Construction
The 505’s hull is laid up by hand with a balsa core above the waterline to reduce weight and insulate the interior. Bulkheads are bonded to the hull sides and deck for increased stiffness and—MEANING FIBERGLASED. NO MATTER HOW THEY CALLED IN THE MAGAZINE.

as with the entire Hanse line—epoxy-based vinylester resins are included in the outer hull laminate for osmosis resistance. The boat’s deep T-keel keeps the ballast low and gives her a good, healthy righting moment. A high-aspect balanced spade rudder extends down almost to the keel foot for maximum bite in the water. A slightly shallower shoal-draft keel is also available

Hanse 505 Sailing today review say the same as the other magazine, good try, but wrong, Tabbed bulkheads, i told you this dudes can name bonded to anything atached to the boat no matter if is glue,duck tape or fg.


A Dehler is not a Hanse, again wrong, Waquiez i think is Groupe Beneteau and they are made diferent....for example.

Next?

Yes off course bonded is laminated and laminated is bonded and magazine professional boat testers are not experienced and two of then call to laminated bonded. That information is given by them by the factory and the factory gave both the same information (that is verified by them).

Wauquiez does not belong to Beneteau, It belonged several years ago.

Dehler is a top brand made by the Hanse group and their specifications are superior as well as their price. they would not use inferior methods on more expensive boats.

Regarding bonding being the same thing as laminated, in what concerns technical language used on boat specifications and by professional boat testers, maybe you should look to what Bavaria says: They use on its new boats the same system Hanse is using, regarding bulkheads:

"The focus is on a stable bulkhead, which also manages the forces acting on a CRUISER 41. Precisely fitted into the hull to the nearest millimetre, it is securely glued to the hull across a large area. ... In addition to the stable hull structure, a massive main bulkhead that is laminated to the hull ensures ultimate rigidity. "

BAVARIA Yachtbau - CRUISER 41

See, contrary of what you say they know about the difference between glued or bonded and laminated

By the way, this is the New 41 a new model. And, like Hanse, Bavaria is only using bonded bulkheads very recently. Before they used laminated bulkheads, all of them:

Bavaria 45 | Round Britain Experience

in fact they still refer on their site that they use laminated bulkheads. Like Hanse only the new designed boats have bonded bulkheads. They seem to be keeping one with another, improving their boats at the same time

Can I go now?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Paulo - since neither robert nor Minaret will provide any evidence that cruising boats are still being built with through-bolted bulkheads and 1-1/2" glass, do you know of anyone out there doing this? I'm having a hard time finding anything.

I looked at Hylas and didn't see anything there. And I also looked at the IP site. They do list the following:



And this...



No balsa.

Oh, and they use the grid bonded to the hull...like production boats...



Lots of bonding going on.

At least they meet the same standard as a Hunter...



And even Hallberg Rassy seems to be coring hulls these days...



No 1-1/2" glass there.

Those pesky bluewater boats! Where are they????

As far as I know, all of the English Moodys had fully glassed-in and through-bolted bulkheads. Mine does:



And how about these chain plates?





They are fabricated from 15mm stainless steel plate, and secured with a 38mm pin.

This construction is much more massive than many other "high end" so-called "blue water" boats, but that is for a reason -- Moodys are specifically made for English Channel and North Sea conditions, which is not your Caribbean, not your Mediterranean, or Baltic sea conditions, by a long shot. Horses for courses. This construction is needless overkill for lower latitudes.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As far as I know, all of the English Moodys had fully glassed-in and through-bolted bulkheads. Mine does:

Attachment 91827

And how about these chain plates?

Attachment 91828

Attachment 91829

They are fabricated from 15mm stainless steel plate, and secured with a 38mm pin.

This construction is much more massive than many other "high end" so-called "blue water" boats, but that is for a reason -- Moodys are specifically made for English Channel and North Sea conditions, which is not your Caribbean, not your Mediterranean, or Baltic sea conditions, by a long shot. Horses for courses. This construction is needless overkill for lower latitudes.

Wow! That is definitely robust! Thanks for these examples.

What year was your boat built? Are they still using the same techniques? They don't mention it in the specs for their DS54 for example.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Humm nop, sorry the specifications for the 385 and the smaller models say the same, laminated bulkheads , is not so hard to get it, Hanse dont rely in modular interior construction, , no plexus grid liners here , then there is no way to attach modular bulkheads with only glue, if you guys read well, Hanse is really proud to build like this way, even they glass to the deck, and the new Arcona style beam in epoxy and glass comfirm that they want stiff and strong boats .
Maybe im wrong who know?

Neil my friend, you are wasting your time trying to educate some people, they are not interested in learning. They are playing a contest of mind/word games.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Wow! That is definitely robust! Thanks for these examples.

What year was your boat built? Are they still using the same techniques? They don't mention it in the specs for their DS54 for example.

My boat was built in 2000. The DS54 is not an English Moody -- it's actually made by Dehler in Germany. The original Moody yard went out of business in the late 2000's -- the result of an unsuccessful attempt to compete with Oyster. After 150 years! And Dehler bought the name. The English Moody yard was losing 200,000 pounds on every boat like mine they made, of which they foolishly built 20 or 30. Because they could not command the prices Oyster were getting, although their costs were the same or even more. They should have stuck to their niche, which was very high quality and very robust but sub-50' and sub-million dollar boats without the flash of Oysters.

It's a real shame -- A.H. Moody & Sons was a central institution of UK sailing and of the Hamble River scene. Now the ancient yard, which is just next to where the Romans used to build ships, where Henry V's and Henry VIII's flagships were built, is a banal commercial marina, about to be turned into condos.

One English maker who did successfully compete with Oyster is Discovery -- also made around here, in Southampton. Unlike Moody, they got the formula right -- a combination of superb construction with style and flash. Lovely boats! Discovery Yachts - award-winning designers and manufacturers of luxury blue-water sailing yachts They are, apparently, prospering.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As far as I know, all of the English Moodys had fully glassed-in and through-bolted bulkheads. Mine does:

Attachment 91827

And how about these chain plates?

Attachment 91828

Attachment 91829

They are fabricated from 15mm stainless steel plate, and secured with a 38mm pin.

This construction is much more massive than many other "high end" so-called "blue water" boats, but that is for a reason -- Moodys are specifically made for English Channel and North Sea conditions, which is not your Caribbean, not your Mediterranean, or Baltic sea conditions, by a long shot. Horses for courses. This construction is needless overkill for lower latitudes.

Wow, thx for the pics, i though there is no builders this days troughbolting bulkheads, definitely overkill, but for the sea the Word OVERKILL is not in the dictionary, excelent detail in the construction..
What about Westerlys, they do the same?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My boat was built in 2000. The DS54 is not an English Moody -- it's actually made by Dehler in Germany. The original Moody yard went out of business in the late 2000's -- the result of an unsuccessful attempt to compete with Oyster. After 150 years! And Dehler bought the name. The English Moody yard was losing 200,000 pounds on every boat like mine they made, of which they foolishly built 20 or 30. Because they could not command the prices Oyster were getting, although their costs were the same or even more. They should have stuck to their niche, which was very high quality and very robust but sub-50' and sub-million dollar boats without the flash of Oysters.

It's a real shame -- A.H. Moody & Sons was a central institution of UK sailing and of the Hamble River scene. Now the ancient yard, which is just next to where the Romans used to build ships, where Henry V's and Henry VIII's flagships were built, is a banal commercial marina, about to be turned into condos.

One English maker who did successfully compete with Oyster is Discovery -- also made around here, in Southampton. Unlike Moody, they got the formula right -- a combination of superb construction with style and flash. Lovely boats! Discovery Yachts - award-winning designers and manufacturers of luxury blue-water sailing yachts They are, apparently, prospering.

That is a shame. Man, losing 200K per boat. That will put anyone out of business.

But I think it's indicative of what we've been talking about throughout this thread - the demand for that level of "old world" robustness and resultant cost is just not there. So no matter how "proper" it seems, those days seem to be over in cruising boats.

As for the Discovery line - WOW! That is a beautiful boat:



Of course, the BWC will complain about the lack of handholds. But that's okay.

Thanks again for the examples. It definitely helps the discussion.

BTW, I was in Southampton over the summer. Very nice place and great people. Oh, and I got to have a nice tour of the Camper VO70. That thing is amazing.

[neilpride]

Wait a moment he he !! its not over yet, the diference is you need to pay the diference, i dont think well made boats era is over .
Southerly yachts...

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Wait a moment he he !! its not over yet, the diference is you need to pay the diference, i dont think well made boats era is over .
Southerly yachts...

That is a very nice $800K yacht. No doubt.

Neil, no one is saying that the "well made boats era is over". It's not. In fact, I think this is exactly the point Polux has been trying to make forever now.

BUT, if your standard of well-made means through-bolted bulkheads, etc. - then, yes, it's probably over. Even so, I'm sure there is someone out there doing it. But, like Dock's example of Moody, their client list is tiny and they are likely losing money...either that or they are a custom shop.

The point here is that EVERYONE is moving away from those old "robust" ways you guys like to point to as the "proper" way to do it. So to call out a production boat because it has glued components, or has a liner, or doesn't have through-bolted bulkheads is ridiculous. All of this is true for even many of the "bluewater" brands.

Conversely, I think everyone understands that these "bluewater" brands (which cost 3-5+ times more than production boats) ARE, in fact, more robust than your average production boat. This is what the customers of these boats demand - and they can afford to do so. So no one is disputing that. BUT - they are definitely not up to the "standard" you and others say that they should be to be a "proper" bluewater boat.

At the end of the day, except for a very tiny number of voyaging boats, these "bluewater" brands share exactly the same stretch of ocean as the production brands. They are all in the same water sailing">blue water sailing happily along.

[colemj]

Going back to the cutting cost by using Plexus thing - has anyone priced Plexus? That stuff costs ~$100 USD per TUBE! Seems like one tube costs the same as 2 laminators - and it would take 2-3 tubes to do a bulkhead.

Minaret - is this stuff a LOT less expensive to professionals than it is in retail? I mean like 10x less?

Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

That is a shame. Man, losing 200K per boat. That will put anyone out of business.

But I think it's indicative of what we've been talking about throughout this thread - the demand for that level of "old world" robustness and resultant cost is just not there. So no matter how "proper" it seems, those days seem to be over in cruising boats.

Well, those who sail in the North Sea and English Channel will continue to demand very strong boats. But strength can be achieved in different ways.

The failure of Moody is indeed a harbinger of progress. 75 years ago there were dozens of car manufacturers making exquisite, hand made vehicles. By 1950, only a couple survived -- Rolls Royce and a couple of others.

By 2010, even Rolls and Bentley were just names put on fancy Volkswagens and BMW's -- practically no more hand made cars in the world.

Everyone who buys anything wants to get more for less money. The formula for that is efficient production -- better in quantity, because you get economy of scale.

That is much harder with boats than with cars, because cars are sold in the tens of millions, and boats just in the thousands. But eventually it slowly happens.

When Beneteau figures out to build a Swan-beater with all of the same characteristics and strength but built by robots, instead of by Finnish craftsmen earning 100 euros an hour, Swan will be out of business.

I think there's no question about that. The only question is when -- it's not now, and maybe not soon, because boats of that class are not sold in enough quantity to amortize the R&D and tooling needed to make them that way. IT has to progress a lot further for it to be possible to fully engineer a boat which can be produced in a small series of say 100 pieces, for efficient automated production by a large company like Groupe Beneteau. Meanwhile, those of us who want something better have to pay the price which covers the cost of expensive hand labor and low tech production.

Anybody read Neil Stephenson's The Diamond Age? Fantastic vision of the future, where all things you need are made by a machine you have at home. When something wears out or you get tired of it, you just toss it in the hopper and it gets recycled into something else, newer and better. Complete design and manufacturing process automated and contained in a machine like today's dishwashers. The time when we conceived and designed things which we then sent to the Chinese to actually produce will seem archaic, quaint, almost Victorian. That absolutely will come to pass -- we are creeping towards it day by day. I guess none of us will live to see boats built that way, but our descendants will definitely see it. The future of course is with efficient automated production.