Multihull in distress.

[neilpride]

Here is my 2 cents. Remember Rainmaker? the gunboat abandoned last year? well there is something similar with the Privilege dismasted , both boats sport a hig aspect CF rig, Rainmaker a single spreader fractional with just a set of uppers for lateral support relying in the CF properties and no lowers.


The Privilege serie 7 sport a new no spreaders Cf stick but against the Gunboat with a doublé set of uppers and lowers, i know this kind of rigs looks nice in theory, in practique they are a pain in the ass, happen with Catana and those old 2002 models sporting a similar rig in the past, the mast maker run out of bussines later, definitely imposible to tune since every time you tight the uppers and lowers the mast bend backwards , and if you leave the spar straight both furlers work loose,, mixing SS rigging in a CF mast is asking for trouble.... So looking at the Privilege mast , suply by a french mast maker named LORIMA who make masts for the french Racing fleet, aka the Open,s for the vende globe , ORMAS, or whatever speedy crazy record breaker its obviously to me not well designed for the Privilege, to much unsupported spar and relying agan in CF stiffness, and again with SS rigging.. You just need to see a diagram of the series 7 rig ...


Prior to this change Privilege have a contract with Marechal spar maker, absolutely one of the best masts out there for multis, in aluminium ...


Regarding if the multis rigs are designed to goo before flip, obviously not, the industry is working in lightweight and stronger materials, not in the opposite direction, multi rigs work harder , 50% more, and they are usually pretty beefy, wire size,pins, tangs, etc... unless some builder start playing with black magic CF... who is a wonderful material for rigs when they are well designed and well supported. obviously this new rigs in the serie 7 are in my opinión to sporty .. no diamonds , struts , spreaders ..to keep the spar in column ... CF have some limits and when you reach the red dot line , buckling can be a isue...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by weavis

Im not sure of the answer to the fuse theory.

What I do know is that most designs fail in stages. Overstress a multihull by sail area and weather, something has to give. Usually the sails or the mast first.

Did Kenomac hear the truth from the manufacturer? I perceive he may have heard the reality of the outcome of many tests and the fact that the mast would fail before a capsize. I rather suspect there is truth in it....

I also look at modern designs of cats and the electronics on board to monitor wind and sail area... when conditions exceed safe operations, the electronics release all lines to prevent dismasting or capsize. In the absence of electronics to do this, Im thinking the weakest link would be the mast with all the sail stress on it and it would pop.

THe manuals certainly place emphasis on wind speed and sail area. When exceeded, all bets are off.

I am not sure that a manufacturer would publically state (in writing) that the mast would pop as a safety measure. He definitely would point out that the mast COULD pop if overstressed.

In extremis, no mast vs being upside down seems a better deal.

The anti capsize fuse, no need to play with rigging...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tp12

Blah blah mate. Try producing some evidence and we can discuss its merits. Until then you're just blowing hot air. A lengthy post blabbering on about anything other than the questions I asked you. You spent more time typing that post than it would take you to produce the evidence you require, if it existed.

To be quite frank I think you owe valhalla360 an apology for your harsh words to him about citations, which you are yet to give yourself! Talk about hypocrisy

Evidence? The reefing tables from the manufacturer are dismissed? The opinion of professional riggers in this thread are dismissed? The factory rep statement is dismissed? the Gunboat debacle didn't happen? You keep going on about evidence but anything brought forward is just "blah blah" for you.

An apology?!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Who says that ? Is it a joke ?

I think it was me who said that... not a joke

Cats riggings are 7 times stronger than similar size of mono for the reasons you mentioned. (check a diamater and wall thickness of a cat mast and you will see) They are all diamond rigging, no backstay (Prout's are exception) , oversized shrouds, etc.. completely different than the rigging of monos.

Really?! You may want to check out the Sundeer 64 rigging before making statements like that. I have diamond stays, no backstays, oversized shrouds... I'm almost a cat!

And what does it mean, that the rigging on a cat has a longer lifespan than that of a mono?! Who is joking?
Cat rigging 7 times stronger... My 1/2" capshrouds are 26,678lb breaking strength (from Ronstan Australia tables) so a comparable cat has 186,746lb strength rigging? FYI, 1" diamater stainless steel rigging is only 89,475lb breaking strength and that is where the table stops

For your catamaran charter fleet in Australia, the rigging should be replaced every 8 years and inspected every year. You can't just do the first inspection after 10 years or 5 years. Ask a rigger...

[smj]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Evidence? The reefing tables from the manufacturer are dismissed? The opinion of professional riggers in this thread are dismissed? The factory rep statement is dismissed? the Gunboat debacle didn't happen? You keep going on about evidence but anything brought forward is just "blah blah" for you.



An apology?!

So you once again have no evidence. A lot of hot air coming out of the Jedi.[emoji38]

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I think it was me who said that... not a joke



Really?! You may want to check out the Sundeer 64 rigging before making statements like that. I have diamond stays, no backstays, oversized shrouds... I'm almost a cat!

And what does it mean, that the rigging on a cat has a longer lifespan than that of a mono?! Who is joking?
Cat rigging 7 times stronger... My 1/2" capshrouds are 26,678lb breaking strength (from Ronstan Australia tables) so a comparable cat has 186,746lb strength rigging? FYI, 1" diamater stainless steel rigging is only 89,475lb breaking strength and that is where the table stops

For your catamaran charter fleet in Marmaris Turkey, the rigging should be replaced every 8 years and inspected every year. You can't just do the first inspection after 10 years or 5 years. Ask a rigger...

Fixed that for ya.....

[yeloya]

Dear Jedi,


-I don't care at all what capshrouds are on yr boat , not even what yr boat is looking like.
-I'm not in Australia but have a lot of customer from Australia and New Zealand. Haven't seen yet anyone who is changing his riggings every 8 years. You can change yr riggings every year if you like, who cares ? But pls stop making comments on cats, you don't have a clue..
Anyway, yr overall ignorance is noted and I won't spend anymore any time reading yr posting and answering.


Good luck

Yeloya

[neilpride]

According to insurance company guidelines, the approximate lifespan of the standing rigging is 10 years for a monohull and 7 years for a multihull.

[robbievardon]

For those who could not understand why the Insurer would pay out and then return the cat to the owner, the picture above shows it all. The owner is and will be liable for dock charges until the cat is removed. You can imagine the cost of a large vessel in a major seaway.Salvage is definitely not big money for little work.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by neilpride

According to insurance company guidelines, the approximate lifespan of the standing rigging is 10 years for a monohull and 7 years for a multihull.

Which insurance company?

[lateral]

The way I see it, the evolution of boat scantlings including rigging, are part engineering and part proof of service owing to the complexity of dynamic loading. Multihulls just have one more variable of significance.
What proportion is attributed to each is up to the NA/designers risk aversion & how many were made/modified.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by neilpride

According to insurance company guidelines, the approximate lifespan of the standing rigging is 10 years for a monohull and 7 years for a multihull.

Exactly, but it's like talking to a rock in the surf. Some insurance companies even want 8 years for monohulls on tropical sea climates. They think it's all a joke, and we're just spewing BS here.

Yeloya: I'm sorry that I took you for an Aussie It must've been that to me you sounded so much like them. But I won't stop commenting on cats, mono's tri's or any other sailboat type. You may not know yet but I like them all, have plenty friends with cats and tri's, sailed them all etc. It's just that I know the strong points as well as the weak points of all and can accept and live with them. You should try it, it's great!

We had world best soccer player who became trainer and died last year. His most famous saying was "every advantage has it's disadvantage" and that's true in this case as well. You think mono-sailors wouldn't like to have their boat as stable as a cat? They might, if that wouldn't mean their capshrouds need to be 1.75" diameter... for sailing in 35 knots with the same rig safety. Every catamaran owner who is reading this thread knows the limitations as specified in their manuals and that the heeling of the mono works like as shock absorber that they don't have. The advantage that they opt for is stability, the disadvantage that comes with it is the stricter limitations. That's life, enjoy it. Jedi may visit the Med when the wars go away; I'll look for you and buy you a drink to make up about the excitement But you still need to inspect those rigs yearly. Come on, I didn't say you need to replace yearly, that's just unfair of you to say. Besides, I have a mono and can wait 20 years

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Which insurance company?

DYC in SXM have the fleet insured with GROUPAMA 3 years agoo, we inspect and make regular surveys for the fleet every year, at 7 years interval we start to change rigging in the multis , mostly Catanas, to be honest they dont follow the 7 years to the exactly time limit , as we see some rigging with 9 or 10 years in excellent shape, but overall the Insurance Company want the Forestay plus uppers and lowers every 7 years, the diamonds usually are ok after 7 years, I hear they are insured this days with Pantaenius...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Which insurance company?

Its in AUS diferent? Your insurance comp let you sailing with the rigging older than 7 years?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Evidence? The reefing tables from the manufacturer are dismissed? The opinion of professional riggers in this thread are dismissed? The factory rep statement is dismissed? the Gunboat debacle didn't happen? You keep going on about evidence but anything brought forward is just "blah blah" for you.



An apology?!

Your reefing tables talk about reefing. Please show me one mention of your engineered fuse and I'll agree with you. There isn't any.

Isn't Neilpride a rigger who says there's no fuse? The professional very respected rigger that I've spoken to here in Sydney laughed at the idea. I asked Seawind, Outremer and FP about it and they all said no, it doesn't happen.

Kenomac heard a sales rep from Leopard 'suggest' that there's a fuse but he didn't respond to my question asking what was actually said. I asked the question directly to three different manufacturers...

You're seriously mentioning Gunboat as proof that there's a fuse?! How does any capsize ever happen then? You're off your rocker.

Yes I am going on about evidence, citations if you will, because that's what you asked for. But you know what, its not me making the claim that you can't properly engineer a rig or that there's some fuse. That's you. Have you backed up your claims? No. But you think everyone else needs to-that's hypocrisy and arrogance. I've searched for evidence, spoken to a rigger and multiple manufacturers looking for evidence to support your claims and there isn't any.

The reality is, if it existed there would be supporting documentation from a manufacturer. Same with this rigging engineering bollocks. Some manual, guideline, sales material...but there is precisely zero. You're wrong but you've got too much pride to admit it so you're staying the course. Which is why you've avoided all the questions I asked you-you can't answer them.

You're all noise and no substance. S/V Hot Air. We've seen your character on display here. You have the temerity to make groundless claims and get personal and ridiculous trying to hold others to a higher level than you'll hold yourself. Forum rules prevent from saying much else but, like Palarran, I now have zero respect for you. You can go on ignore