More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

.............. SVZ gets it all because... well, you can draw the conclusion, but mine is that a lot of people here have made it a political issue based on their perception SVZ's political leanings.

Mate, please just leave the politics out of it.....

This thread has nothing to do with anyone's political leanings. It is about poor behaviour when cruising and crossing international borders.

If you want to see it through a political lens, go find another forum where political posturing is welcome because it ain't welcome here.

However if you want to discuss, defend or attack behaviour (good or bad) by cruisers, jump right back into this thread and go for it.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

you just defined bias. so its not about standing up to bias, its just about bias in general? got it.

I've read almost every post on this thread and have seen a bunch of self-described "progressive" sailors on here pontificating about their world view. it could only be imagined as to what a "progressive" sailor is, but it probably skews more towards pink hair, rainbows and butterflies.

all this talk about respecting a country's rules and laws, then devolving into America bashing while ignoring the fact that the US has largely played fast and loose with it's own rules and laws about the same subject for decaaaaaaades and is suddenly labeled as racist the moment they actually make an attempt to enforce its borders.

it wouldn't be too unreasonable to believe that these same "progressive" cruisers would fall in lockstep with the whole BLM movement in the US (and elsewhere), but again ignoring the hypocrisy that others refuse to call out discrimination in the South Pacific because... get this, white guilt? seriously, bringing up disease brought to the islands half a MILLENNIUM ago.

yuuuuup, all of this is waaaaaaay off the actual topic. but every single one of them is something a "progressive" sailor has already cited as a concern previously in this thread.

please, the very next time someone sails to Fiji or Tonga, let us know if you experience any discrimination because of SVZ's actions. you can't assume either. the authorities have to say they're treating you a certain way because of what SVZ did, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Well, I'll give you credit jstrru402, you know how to lay on the sarcasm. Did you know you could put emoticons in which show eye-rolls? That would certainly bolster the strength of your feelings about the hypocritical "progressive" sailors who must be bashing America in your view when they are really bashing some guy who decides on his own views of the rules of Fiji and Tonga. Actually, that logic is a bit hard to follow: lets see...Guy apparently flouts the rules regarding crossing borders. Commenters on CF think border rules should be obeyed therefor the guy is in the wrong. Somehow you make the jump of logic that they must be "progressive" liberals which means obviously they don't believe in borders because we all know that folks of that ilk believe in open borders so therefore they are bashing the USA?

And then you bring up BLM and "white guilt" and diseases from half a millenium ago...and that's after determining that they probably skew towards pink hair, rainbows and butterflies

Wow, just a bunch of anger uncorked it seems to me.

Meanwhile, back to Zatara's, has he said anything else new?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Wow. I'm pretty sure that turning up somewhere with the sort of attitude that includes "educating the locals" will pretty much confirm to the country in question that they were absolutely right to pre-judge cruisers' behaviour.

Didnt missionaries do that? how'd that work out?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

you just defined bias. so its not about standing up to bias, its just about bias in general? got it.

I've read almost every post on this thread and have seen a bunch of self-described "progressive" sailors on here pontificating about their world view. it could only be imagined as to what a "progressive" sailor is, but it probably skews more towards pink hair, rainbows and butterflies.

all this talk about respecting a country's rules and laws, then devolving into America bashing while ignoring the fact that the US has largely played fast and loose with it's own rules and laws about the same subject for decaaaaaaades and is suddenly labeled as racist the moment they actually make an attempt to enforce its borders.

it wouldn't be too unreasonable to believe that these same "progressive" cruisers would fall in lockstep with the whole BLM movement in the US (and elsewhere), but again ignoring the hypocrisy that others refuse to call out discrimination in the South Pacific because... get this, white guilt? seriously, bringing up disease brought to the islands half a MILLENNIUM ago.

yuuuuup, all of this is waaaaaaay off the actual topic. but every single one of them is something a "progressive" sailor has already cited as a concern previously in this thread.

please, the very next time someone sails to Fiji or Tonga, let us know if you experience any discrimination because of SVZ's actions. you can't assume either. the authorities have to say they're treating you a certain way because of what SVZ did, otherwise it's just your opinion.

You lost me the moment you said "I've been discriminated against all my life"...yawn.

[OloteleMtn]

My thanks to the undermanned mods who must wade through all the rudeness, vitriol, and lack of self awareness that has been the constant throughout this bickering thread.....what more should i expect from this "community" that can create 17+ pages over "pon pon" or "pan pan"?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

My thanks to the undermanned mods who must wade through all the rudeness, vitriol, and lack of self awareness that has been the constant throughout this bickering thread.....what more should i expect from this "community" that can create 17+ pages over "pon pon" or "pan pan"?

Well OloteleMtn, this didn't have to be 17+ pages. Somebody complained about Zatara's behavior and attitude and somebody else defended him, and it went from there. Lots of people jumped in, including you and me. Nobody wants to let the other guy have the last word. It turned into politics, as is want.

However, if you think the topic is as inconsequential as how to pronounce pan pan vs pon pon, you don't have to be such a adamant part of it, do you?

In my way of thinking, a discussion about the proper behavior of cruisers toward foreign countries' rules is a really appropriate topic for discussion. I'm glad we are having it.

[El Pinguino]

JSTRRU402.... I suggest you look here....https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-236534.html

Post #4 says all that needs saying..

To summarise...

Zatara goes on youtube... says lockdown in NZ... a country they are guests in ... is nonsense... they should be able to go where they want when they want.. if they get Covid they will deal with it in their own family cluster..and not seek medical assistance... that has since been removed.
They also said as much on Facebook ... that seems to have also vanished.. I linked to it earlier.

So... having decided to leave NZ because it is boring they ask the Tongans in March about entry there... sorry... borders closed. In early July the Tongan border is still closed but hey we will try and get in anyway.....
Also closed when they departed was Fiji....
'01 July, 2020:

Yachts should not set off for Fiji until protocols are properly in place. Any yacht arriving without prior approval may cause the border to close again. Customs will not tolerate unannounced arrivals and will come down heavily on these yachts with fines and they will not be issued a cruising permit.'..... but hey we will go there anyway....

Sadly it would appear they may have pulled that off as on the 8th Fiji brought in new rules..

'08 July, 2020: **OPEN**

The framework for accepting foreign pleasure yachts into Fiji has now been finalized and skippers can start with the application process.
There is a strict protocol that must be adhered to and a registered Agent must be appointed to deal with the application.
Your Agent will forward the following forms: Advanced Notice of Arrival, Heath Declaration Card, and Immigration Card. The Advanced Notice of Arrival can be filled in on-screen. The other forms will need printing and scanning.
All completed documents need to be sent to the agent at least 5 days prior to departure, therefore be sure to appoint an agent in plenty of time.
Approval to depart for Fiji will be given once a Negative COVID Test Certificate is submitted.
Yachts must leave for Fiji within 48hrs of receiving the test results.
See this article with full details including a list of registered agents.'

This is nothing about politics... just about knobhead's view of entitlement and how the rules do not apply to them....

[Fore and Aft]

What I don't understand Ping is how people think it's any different turning up in a country by boat or by plane? if you do not follow any countries border control policies when you turn up by plane you are on the next flight home simple. There is no turning up and trying to negotiate things, well none that I have seen anyway. Maybe I am just to timid and should "grow a pair"

Cheers

[barnakiel]

It is nothing about politics but quite some about our illusions.


Like the great illusion of leaving our attitudes behind when we abandon the land life and step onboard.

barnakiel

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

What I don't understand Ping is how people think it's any different turning up in a country by boat or by plane? if you do not follow any countries border control policies when you turn up by plane you are on the next flight home simple. There is no turning up and trying to negotiate things, well none that I have seen anyway. Maybe I am just to timid and should "grow a pair"

Cheers

+1!


b.

[NorthernMac]

How does one talk about experiences with international laws/ borders / authorities / laws, all made by politicians, and not talk about politics?

Let’s talk about that chicken sandwich, but leave the poultry talk at home.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

...There is no turning up and trying to negotiate things...

Well, there can be. I've done it twice, both times innocently.

Once I checked out of Tobago bound for Grenada, then didn't like the weather so I returned to Tobago, Charlotteville, and took a bus back to Scarborough to check back in. It took about 6 hours of explaining before they decided I was not going to jail. (oops!)

One other time I sailed to Sumatra, Indonesia, with an approved cruising permit but no Visa because I read that Indonesia had "Visa on Arrival". Oops again. That only works at airports. This time the officials were very friendly when they came out to the boat until they found we didn't have visas. They took us to town and we did sort of land in jail. They packed us across town in the back of a black SUV with armed guards then left us in a closed room where Judy and I waited while two officers in the hallway discussed what to do with us. When they asked for our passports Judy started to cry and they changed their minds and turned us over to an agent who had to watch us and they gave us 24 hours to leave. It just about stopped our cruising.

So you can negotiate, but I'd rather just try to follow the rules, and not take advantage of it.

Photo: These guys were friendly but they didn't know what to do once they found out we didn't have Visas

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

How does one talk about experiences with international laws/ borders / authorities / laws, all made by politicians, and not talk about politics?

Let’s talk about that chicken sandwich, but leave the poultry talk at home.

Simple... the immigration laws of a country ( foreign to you ) are the laws of the country and in most places do not change simply because there has been a change of government. You as a visitor just have to accept them or live with the consequences....

F'rinstance Australia's border protection laws have the support of all three major parties ( I think there are three ) .

And it is quite easy to talk about chicken sandwiches without introducing the ethics of poultry farming... well it is for some....

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

JSTRRU402.... I suggest you look here....https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-236534.html

Post #4 says all that needs saying..

To summarise...

Zatara goes on youtube... says lockdown in NZ... a country they are guests in ... is nonsense... they should be able to go where they want when they want.. if they get Covid they will deal with it in their own family cluster..and not seek medical assistance... that has since been removed.
They also said as much on Facebook ... that seems to have also vanished.. I linked to it earlier.

So... having decided to leave NZ because it is boring they ask the Tongans in March about entry there... sorry... borders closed. In early July the Tongan border is still closed but hey we will try and get in anyway.....
Also closed when they departed was Fiji....
'01 July, 2020:

Yachts should not set off for Fiji until protocols are properly in place. Any yacht arriving without prior approval may cause the border to close again. Customs will not tolerate unannounced arrivals and will come down heavily on these yachts with fines and they will not be issued a cruising permit.'..... but hey we will go there anyway....

Sadly it would appear they may have pulled that off as on the 8th Fiji brought in new rules..

'08 July, 2020: **OPEN**

The framework for accepting foreign pleasure yachts into Fiji has now been finalized and skippers can start with the application process.
There is a strict protocol that must be adhered to and a registered Agent must be appointed to deal with the application.
Your Agent will forward the following forms: Advanced Notice of Arrival, Heath Declaration Card, and Immigration Card. The Advanced Notice of Arrival can be filled in on-screen. The other forms will need printing and scanning.
All completed documents need to be sent to the agent at least 5 days prior to departure, therefore be sure to appoint an agent in plenty of time.
Approval to depart for Fiji will be given once a Negative COVID Test Certificate is submitted.
Yachts must leave for Fiji within 48hrs of receiving the test results.
See this article with full details including a list of registered agents.'

This is nothing about politics... just about knobhead's view of entitlement and how the rules do not apply to them....

Wonder how previous Zataranian behavior is going to affect their treatment when being considered for admittance?

I'm sure he'll have a workaround for that too...though it seems the highlighted section could be a problem...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

How does one talk about experiences with international laws/ borders / authorities / laws, all made by politicians, and not talk about politics?

Let’s talk about that chicken sandwich, but leave the poultry talk at home.

No NorthecnMac, the discussion was about whether or not Zataras were wrong in not exactly following the rules of Tonga and Fiji, or whether or not they actually broke any the rules.

Some people defended them, on various grounds, and others scorned them. Even others said that the rules were stupid or some such thing.

The rights of countries to have any rules they want is not a political discussion, nor is it political to argue whether or not a cruiser should follow them.

It got political when some persons decided that those who argued that cruisers should follow a country's rules must be liberals and then "whatabouted" it to: You seem to think it's OK when people break the border rules in the USA.

THAT'S when it got to be political. It didn't have to be. It could have stayed on the level of ethics, morality, and "leaving a clean wake".

Oh, I forgot, I'm not supposed to let you troll us.