Marine mechanic etiquette

[simonthepom]

A quick question; if a mechanic breaks something he is working on should he pay for the replacement part?
A bit of background; our Paguro 4000 generator packed up a couple of months ago. The mechanic here in Panama diagnosed the issue (salt water ingress in cylinder), so changed the piston rings for non OEM rings. The generator ran for 6 or so hours then stopped working again - seized piston rings again. So I ordered OEM rings from the US as no supplier in Panama for Farymann engines. UPS cost $120 and took ten days to arrive. Then the cost of the rings and head gasket + $60 import duty = total of about $400!!!
Now when reassembling the engine, the mechanic broke the oil ring. And of course the rings are only sold in sets. The mechanic flat out refuses to pay for it. He even had the nerve to start blaming me for having to work in a tight space (it's a boat!) and "I told you this is **** generator from the start..." Needless to say it got my back up!
He's offered to put the non OEM oil ring in as he maintains the new compression rings will get it going, we might just have some excess exhaust smoke if the seal from the oil ring is less than perfect.
I won't even go into how much time we've lost from our cruise and other expenses incurred. Just want to get out of here with a working genny!

Thoughts?


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[JPA Cate]

Simonthepom,

First, let me say, I really hear your frustration. It is quite common with those who do not do their own work, and even those who do, have to wait on parts suppliers, etc. I have to say also, that piston rings are fragile, it is easy to break them.

No, I think your best option, if you have a way of measuring the non OEM ring, to see if it happens to be the same size as the ones from England, the quickest way to get back cruising would be to install it--if it is the proper size. Unfortunately, at your cost, and be as friendly as you can, too. Apologize for having lost your temper with him.

In Panama, a mechanic is a professional. The caste system is a little different than that of England. However, he is not a wealthy man, more than likely, and even more less likely if he is a young man with a young man's expenses. You, with your pretty boat, are far wealthier than he, and he knows it; plus you have freedom (priceless, imho) that he doesn't. Unless you are extremely gracious with him, you'll be rubbing his machismo the wrong way, and that will be counter-productive. Remember this when you get to Australia, the tradesmen do not take kindly to any nation's whiners.

Finally, you may want to create a plan B. Is there a way you can keep your boat going without the genset? If you get the present one going again, what if it quits while you're on your way to the Galapagos? There aren't many yachting centers before Papeete, and there, the prices are very high (100% duty on parts).

If you do have to rely on the genset, then best resign yourself to waiting, even if it means another ring kit (which it really shouldn't: oil rings are oil rings, there's nothing magic about a label on a package).

Etiquette, treat him with the politeness you'd do the mother of a treasured wife, or your best mate's dad.

Good luck with it, man, I hope you get a speedy resolution.

Ann

[rwidman]

If the mechanic breaks a part he supplied, he would have to replace it.

If the mechanic broke a part you supplied, that's a different story.

There is a lesson here: Let the mechanic, shop, etc. do the entire job (including supplying the parts) and they will be responsible for the whole job.

[a64pilot]

Is this a three piece oil control ring?
Second of note, it ran for 6 hours and rings seized? Only very rarely have I ever seized a ring and that was in racing engines where I meted the pistons a little and the ring groove collapsed.
So what is going on to seize the rings? Wasn't fixed apparently as rings re-seized?
I can't imagine manufacturer of rings being significant, but think an off brand oil control ring here is not your real problem.
Truth unless the very old fashioned single piece oil control ring I can't imagine breaking an oil control ring, compression, yes.

[S/V Illusion]

A mechanic who breaks things like that isn't a good mechanic. And one who blames his work environment is an incompetent mechanic. Sorry to hear your tale but I hope you didn't pay him anything.

[Jim Cate]

There is a lesson here: Let the mechanic, shop, etc. do the entire job (including supplying the parts) and they will be responsible for the whole job.

A reasonable philosophy in general, but sometimes simply not feasible in third world environments if the job requires sourcing rare parts from outside the local community/country.

Jim

[westwinds]

When a piston ring is installed, there is a gap where the ends meet. If the gap is too small, the piston comes up to temperature and the gap closes to nothing and the ring continues to try and expand. He should have checked the gap. Also, breaking a piston ring means to me that he did not know how to get the ring onto the piston. It can be done by hand, but a special tool helps. If you do it by hand you have to be gentile. And why he should blame you for the breakage? It does not make sense. However, usually when the owner brings a new part, the part is cheaper than original equipment and the work would not have a guarantee. Also, the mechanic does not make as much money because he cannot up the cost of the new part from wholesale price to retail. In your situation, I would make sure the end clearances on the oil ring are within specification. If it is, then use it.

[a64pilot]

Too tight rings make one break after it has been run, I took this to be install number two and ring broken on installation, which can happen if your misuse a compressor or a re not careful, and in a tight area it would make it much harder.

[simonthepom]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Simonthepom,

First, let me say, I really hear your frustration. It is quite common with those who do not do their own work, and even those who do, have to wait on parts suppliers, etc. I have to say also, that piston rings are fragile, it is easy to break them.

No, I think your best option, if you have a way of measuring the non OEM ring, to see if it happens to be the same size as the ones from England, the quickest way to get back cruising would be to install it--if it is the proper size. Unfortunately, at your cost, and be as friendly as you can, too. Apologize for having lost your temper with him.

In Panama, a mechanic is a professional. The caste system is a little different than that of England. However, he is not a wealthy man, more than likely, and even more less likely if he is a young man with a young man's expenses. You, with your pretty boat, are far wealthier than he, and he knows it; plus you have freedom (priceless, imho) that he doesn't. Unless you are extremely gracious with him, you'll be rubbing his machismo the wrong way, and that will be counter-productive. Remember this when you get to Australia, the tradesmen do not take kindly to any nation's whiners.

Finally, you may want to create a plan B. Is there a way you can keep your boat going without the genset? If you get the present one going again, what if it quits while you're on your way to the Galapagos? There aren't many yachting centers before Papeete, and there, the prices are very high (100% duty on parts).

If you do have to rely on the genset, then best resign yourself to waiting, even if it means another ring kit (which it really shouldn't: oil rings are oil rings, there's nothing magic about a label on a package).

Etiquette, treat him with the politeness you'd do the mother of a treasured wife, or your best mate's dad.

Good luck with it, man, I hope you get a speedy resolution.

Ann

I think you're making some wrong assumptions here. He is not a local, he European and charges practically European prices, so there is an expectation of high quality work. He makes a VERY good living here in Panama (he told me himself what he makes annually). We will have spent almost $3k with him for various goods and services, one of which being new solar panels and support so we don't have to rely on the generator so much. We do however need the generator to run our watermaker, an investment i'm not willing to waste simply because a qualified mechanic can't get the genny running!

Re the non OEM rings, they are Toyota rings that are 1mm too large, however he ground them down to the right size, let's see... He is supposed to be here today, but as usual a no show and no replies to messages (this has been going on for 8 weeks).

Also, I've lived in Australia for 15 years, so think I'll be right re how to interact with other humans. On ya Ann!


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[Jim Cate]

He is supposed to be here today, but as usual a no show and no replies to messages (this has been going on for 8 weeks).

Hmmm... you've been bad mouthing him in person and on the internet and this is a surprise???

Pommie, while Ann may have misconstrued your first post re the nationality of the mecho, she was right on re how to get reasonable cooperation from tradespeople anywhere in the world. I can understand that you are feeling ripped off, but it seems to me that you are now in damage control mode. If you ever want the gennie to run again you may have to do some distasteful crow eating.

And when you say the rings he used were 1mm too large and he "ground them down" does that mean that they were for a 1 mm larger bore? Kinda hard to grind that down... And is it a cast iron oil ring? Haven't seen one of those in a while!

I hope that you can get this mess sorted, mate, but it is a great example of why some folks say that a cruising boat should never depend upon any item that the skipper can't repair himself.

Good luck

Jim

[a64pilot]

Last cast Iron oil control ring I used was in a old 220 Mercedes Diesel, probably a 70's car?
Then it was normal to use a quart of oil every couple tanks of fuel, when new and well broken in.

I was wondering about the 1mm too, and I think it is the compression rings are too thick, I can see honing them down on an oil stone if I could get one big enough. Also being too thick would explain the seizure too.

[simonthepom]

Sorry, meant to say bore diameter for the rings. Spec is 81mm, Toyota rings are 82mm. I don't know the exact process of "grinding them down" but it was apparently an arduous task done by hand. But didn't work with the compression rings, so not sure we'll have a different result with the oil ring.


Re the no show today, as mentioned, this happens practically every time he say he's coming, long before he broke the oil ring.

I don't really see what the problem is with talking this about online, as long as his name or business name are omitted. Plenty of Europeans working on boats here in Panama.

I agree with the thinking about being able to maintain and repair all systems on board. I do most things myself, but I am not skilled enough to remove cylinder head, cylinder, pistons etc. yet, but I'm learning. Hence why in some instances I need to pay a professional.


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[a64pilot]

Rings usually come too big, what you do is take the piston and push the ring into the bore and remove the piston and measure the end gap of the rings with a feeler gauge, then file off an end of the ring to get the correct gap, it is no harder really than gapping a spark plug and 1mm is nothing.
You use the piston to make sure the ring is perfectly flat, but anything that fits the bore would work.
A very few bores have a choke to them, meaning the top side is slightly smaller in diameter than the lower part of the bore, for these you need to have the depth of the ring correct to measure.
I doubt a little Diesel bore is choked.
If you don't trim the rings and they are too large what I have seen happen is they will break when the engine is run and it gets hot.

[Dave_S]

IMHO = my 0.02c worth

I started life as a tradesman, 2 trades infact. I have spent a lot of time working with and employing trades people. If they are good they will back themselves even when the liability is not clear and they are worth extra money and effort.

Without any doubt in my mind, if, when things go wrong and the Tradie blames you and/ or the work place, he's in the other group regardless of other factors.

Cut him loose cut your losses and don't think about him again.

[Bill Seal]

1mm of bore is like 3mm (1/8") of overlap if you try to push them in. Grinding that much off, I doubt they would be very round. Here in the primitive US of A, most rings fit properly, I doubt many non-race engine rebuilders can afford to have their workers hand-fitting 24 rings. (32 with 3 piece oil rings).