Length vs Beating, course vs pounding

[Lihuedooley77]

You are doing great, and there are excellent responses from the other posters.
It is special to talk sailing. Thank you.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

But good pointing ability gives you the option of bearing away for comfort. If you can make 35 degrees well, you can make 40-45 easier (or possibly 30 should you wish that motion). If the best you can do is 45 degrees, you have less room to play with to make the motion more comfortable while still making some progress in the direction you want.

On the beat in question we actually used that thought.

The Bene would make reasonable progress pinched as close as 30, the efficiency there varied though, that was really on the razors edge.

Being able to go that close opened up options.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Exactly, a close pointing boat cracked off 5 or 10 degs is far more comfortable in a seaway than a boat that doesn't point well hard on the wind.

Probably true for boats constrained by hull speed.

In our case, easing off 5 or 10 degrees to 35' or 40' will see a huge increase in boatspeed, which can see us jumping off waves.

A better strategy for us is to pinch up a little to slow the boat down, and tighten tacking angles.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Probably true for boats constrained by hull speed.

In our case, easing off 5 or 10 degrees to 35' or 40' will see a huge increase in boatspeed, which can see us jumping off waves.

A better strategy for us is to pinch up a little to slow the boat down, and tighten tacking angles.

I was referring to monos that point high vs ones that can't. Not sure how this would apply to cats. I suspect your cat points higher than many other cats. Pinching to slow the boat can get ugly in large seas. Seems it is diificult to keep your speed consistent between getting hit and slowed by the next sea and falling off a little and accelerating.
Can you crack off and reduce sail significantly on your cat to get the same advantage you'd see on a performance mono? Even on a mono you've got to reduce sail or the speed can increase so much it negates any comfort additions to the ride.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Probably true for boats constrained by hull speed.

In our case, easing off 5 or 10 degrees to 35' or 40' will see a huge increase in boatspeed, which can see us jumping off waves.

A better strategy for us is to pinch up a little to slow the boat down, and tighten tacking angles.

This is exactly the stuff we played with, when we pinched close to 30 the boat speed would slow a bit, but our easting (our progress toward the goal) in this case was similar.

Each time we tacked the rules changed a bit, sometimes halfway through a tack the rules changed, but a few degrees of course adjustment seemed to make life easy again.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by MJH

Don't get too carried away thinking that LOA "alone" will give you the best COMFORT ride. I checked my database of over 4,000 sailboats for Beneteau's at about 50' and came up with the following COMFORT (equation taking LOA, LWL, Beam, and Displacement numbers) figures:

Beneteau Sense 50; 27.7
Beneteau Oceanis 50; 27.2
Beneteau First 50; 29.5
Beneteau 50; 30.3
Beneteau Oceanis 500; 24.7
Beneteau 510; 26.6

For comparison look at the following sample of other designs less than 50':

Valiant 40; 34.4
Tayana Vancouver 42; 43.7

With an acceptable range of 25-50 COMFORT rating, Beneteau 50s barely make the grade even with their longer length; don't count out shorter LOAs. Do your homework. Numbers don't lie.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Of course these comfort factors completely neglect time at sea. I have been more than happy to sail past 50ft full keel cruising boats on my 1975 tartan 41 between islands in similar conditions to those described. As a day sail, I may take a bit more of a beating, beating to wind. But I only endure it for say 4 hours, vice 6. And I have a nice hourglass bottom, not a flat bottom girl. Also, the OP compared a mono to a catamaran and cat has a completely different movement since it doesn't heel and harden and is at the mercy of its beam riding over waves for stability.... or anti stability

[zstine]

I also noticed the OP mentioned several ripped gennys....? UM, 30knt's to wind is no place for a genny! I'm up with my cutter sail which is like 65% but point's awesome and can make hull speed at 30knts to weather... love that sail!

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by zstine

I also noticed the OP mentioned several ripped gennys....? UM, 30knt's to wind is no place for a genny! I'm up with my cutter sail which is like 65% but point's awesome and can make hull speed at 30knts to weather... love that sail!

Charters seem to make up the bulk of boaters on the water in the BVI’s.

It also seems that having a high enough credit limit can be used in-lieu-of proving you have some skill as a sailor when arranging your charter.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by zstine

Of course these comfort factors completely neglect time at sea. I have been more than happy to sail past 50ft full keel cruising boats on my 1975 tartan 41 between islands in similar conditions to those described. As a day sail, I may take a bit more of a beating, beating to wind. But I only endure it for say 4 hours, vice 6. And I have a nice hourglass bottom, not a flat bottom girl. Also, the OP compared a mono to a catamaran and cat has a completely different movement since it doesn't heel and harden and is at the mercy of its beam riding over waves for stability.... or anti stability

The time at sea consideration is definitely part of my calculations as I look for a boat.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I was referring to monos that point high vs ones that can't. Not sure how this would apply to cats. I suspect your cat points higher than many other cats. Pinching to slow the boat can get ugly in large seas. Seems it is diificult to keep your speed consistent between getting hit and slowed by the next sea and falling off a little and accelerating.
Can you crack off and reduce sail significantly on your cat to get the same advantage you'd see on a performance mono? Even on a mono you've got to reduce sail or the speed can increase so much it negates any comfort additions to the ride.

Yes we can reduce sail and point lower, but pointing fractionally "too high" has worked well for us.

[richr]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

On the beat in question we actually used that thought.

The Bene would make reasonable progress pinched as close as 30, the efficiency there varied though, that was really on the razors edge.

Being able to go that close opened up options.

Also worth considering rig and sail trim.

If you wind on the backstay you flatten the entry of the jib; likewise (depending on the rigging) if you bend the mast you flatten the main. Heave on the halyard and downhaul and you pull draft forward. Use the foresail cars to increase twist.

All these measures reduce power and, of greater importance in chop, make it more controllable. They give the helm a broader "groove" meaning you can bear away a little without instantly stalling the rudder/ pinch a bit without losing all drive from the rig. If you get it right you give yourself 5 degrees, or a little more, to steer around the worst of waves and reduce the discomfort factor, as well as actually getting there faster.

The benefit is more pronounced in a lighter boat. A short fin LDB "needs" to be steered more actively and also has the manoeuvrability; a stonking leadmine can plug away with momentum barging her way solidly in a straight-line through the chop, and doesn't respond quickly to the rudder anyway.

Not all charter boats are set up to allow this. Some have permanently fixed backstays because they don't want you touching them. And the sails are usually a bit shagged-out. It takes its toll.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by richr

Also worth considering rig and sail trim.

If you wind on the backstay you flatten the entry of the jib; likewise (depending on the rigging) if you bend the mast you flatten the main. Heave on the halyard and downhaul and you pull draft forward. Use the foresail cars to increase twist.

All these measures reduce power and, of greater importance in chop, make it more controllable. They give the helm a broader "groove" meaning you can bear away a little without instantly stalling the rudder/ pinch a bit without losing all drive from the rig. If you get it right you give yourself 5 degrees, or a little more, to steer around the worst of waves and reduce the discomfort factor, as well as actually getting there faster.

The benefit is more pronounced in a lighter boat. A short fin LDB "needs" to be steered more actively and also has the manoeuvrability; a stonking leadmine can plug away with momentum barging her way solidly in a straight-line through the chop, and doesn't respond quickly to the rudder anyway.

Not all charter boats are set up to allow this. Some have permanently fixed backstays because they don't want you touching them. And the sails are usually a bit shagged-out. It takes its toll.

The boat we were on was in quite good shape with regard to the rig and sails.

One of the ways we found to keep a straight line with the Bene was the auto pilot. Auto was actually a great learning tool because it showed us how little rudder it really takes to keep a boat like that on track.

[Cowpoos]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

A few weeks back

Massively subjective. Most people don't beat to weather unless they have too. 99.99% of the time you will avoid beating to weather. So small amount of time and uncomfortable at some level on every boat.

My advice...worry about being at anchor 84.98% of the time and 15% of the time you are sailing or motoring without beating.

[mglonnro]

I think there's a funny theme in this thread: "I'm sailing in fresh conditions with a production built boat and everything feels good. What am I doing wrong? "

[Suijin]

No doubt that length helps, all other things being equal. Falling off a bit also generally helps both in terms of comfort and stress on the boat.

But it really comes down to sea state. You said “good sized waves” or something similar. That tells us little about what you were sailing into.

A Bene 50 has a pretty flat forefoot. Up to a certain point, in a certain sea, it’s going to be comfortable...until it’s not. In conditions that a boat designed for offshore comfort, even of less length, would manage better.

I would be careful about drawing broad conclusions about the Bene and similar boats from one 15 mile upwind jaunt.

And if other boats arrived with ripped sails in those conditions that falls on poor maintenance or poor seamanship or probably both, not the boat design.