Length vs Beating, course vs pounding

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Cowpoos

Massively subjective. Most people don't beat to weather unless they have too. 99.99% of the time you will avoid beating to weather. So small amount of time and uncomfortable at some level on every boat.

My advice...worry about being at anchor 84.98% of the time and 15% of the time you are sailing or motoring without beating.

Of course my description of the comfort is subjective, but, I’m Going to suggest that most of us beat to windward more than we might like to admit.

During our charter/training we essentially circumnavigated Tortola. We couldn’t go down wind all the way around Tortola. Given we started and ended in the same place, and that it takes more time and effort to go upwind, I think it’s safe to say that we beat for considerably more miles and more time than we ran.

This is the norm at home too.

I do agree whole heartedly that we will be swinging on a hook a lot more than we sail though, your advice there is solid.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think there's a funny theme in this thread: "I'm sailing in fresh conditions with a production built boat and everything feels good. What am I doing wrong? "

It’s a matter of expectations. Given the bad press production boats and beating to windward get...

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Suijin

No doubt that length helps, all other things being equal. Falling off a bit also generally helps both in terms of comfort and stress on the boat.

But it really comes down to sea state. You said “good sized waves” or something similar. That tells us little about what you were sailing into.

A Bene 50 has a pretty flat forefoot. Up to a certain point, in a certain sea, it’s going to be comfortable...until it’s not. In conditions that a boat designed for offshore comfort, even of less length, would manage better.

I would be careful about drawing broad conclusions about the Bene and similar boats from one 15 mile upwind jaunt.

And if other boats arrived with ripped sails in those conditions that falls on poor maintenance or poor seamanship or probably both, not the boat design.

So the seastate at the Soper’s Hole end was quite confused, our tutor explained, and it’s quite noticeable on a map, that St. John and Tortola form a bit of a funnel that increases the wave height and messes with the shape and spacing.

Part of the reason for asking here is to check the results of my experience against what others have found.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

Of course my description of the comfort is subjective, but, I’m Going to suggest that most of us beat to windward more than we might like to admit.

......d.

If you are on a local charter or coming and going from your home berth, sure. If you are out cruising, then no. You do a lot to avoid having to do long beats.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you are on a local charter or coming and going from your home berth, sure. If you are out cruising, then no. You do a lot to avoid having to do long beats.

I agree with the ideal of avoiding a long beat to windward, working uphill from Tahiti to Panama starting in March would be hard road.

I’m simply suggesting that beating upwind is a bigger part of our lives than many of us care to admit.

At the charter base we were at, there was a lovely couple that had come down the east coast of the USA via the ICW and then made the leap out to Tortola. That beat is a normal cruisers path. They are planning another beat to the east and then to follow the islands down toward Grenada before hurricane season.

This isn’t an abnormal route for cruisers. Understanding how to be relatively comfy on trips like that is important.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

I agree with the ideal of avoiding a long beat to windward, working uphill from Tahiti to Panama starting in March would be hard road.

I’m simply suggesting that beating upwind is a bigger part of our lives than many of us care to admit.

At the charter base we were at, there was a lovely couple that had come down the east coast of the USA via the ICW and then made the leap out to Tortola. That beat is a normal cruisers path. They are planning another beat to the east and then to follow the islands down toward Grenada before hurricane season.

This isn’t an abnormal route for cruisers. Understanding how to be relatively comfy on trips like that is important.

Cruisers 'making the leap out to Tortola' plan carefully on where to exit the US east coast to avoid beating. If you leave from south or the Bahamas then it is typically days of motoring.
Leaving the Virgins to get to the Windwards you also plan to minimize the trades strength and crack off as much as possible. It's a waiting game.

Long beats are a great way to break your home as a cruiser.

[Don C L]

Waterline helps certainly, but I have crewed on a 65' that beat me up as we beat for 5 days... my bunk was in the bow. Did you spend any time in the bow? The skipper had the aft cabin. He was well-rested. There is a frequency thing at work too relative to the sea state and the hull shape I think. When you hit the oscillation frequency of the hull, things start to slam. OK I made that up, I don't know if there is such a thing as "hull oscillation frequency," but I think there is something to hitting the waves, at a certain speed, that have a certain period and shape, that are coming at a certain speed, with a certain hull shape, that has something to do with it. It is not solely a matter of going uphill with a modern hull design, production or not.
I think it is safe to say that a flat hull is more prone to slamming though.

[Pelagic]

Every vessel has a critical wave period when going to windward.... We test for it in new hull designs at tank testing facilities.
That period is a function of your speed combined with the opposing wave period to give you an "interaction" period....

Further complicated in a sailboat by your angle tacking into the wave.

The critical interaction period is approximately your waterline length, as the boat has no time to recover before being hit by the next crest.

I have been in side by side conditions where a 65ft boat is going to windward quite happily, but a 200 ft ship is burying its bows.

Hull design, weight distribution and helmsmanship can minimize that critical period by changing the harmonics between large sets thru abrupt course changes to belly up to the wave, but you will know when you are in that critical phase and all you can do is minimize it

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think there's a funny theme in this thread: "I'm sailing in fresh conditions with a production built boat and everything feels good. What am I doing wrong? "

You're reading too many CF threads. This place has a good number of posters in heavy displacement full-keeled boats who have plenty of time to post while they wait at anchor for the wind to change direction.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Every vessel has a critical wave period when going to windward.... We test for it in new hull designs at tank testing facilities.
That period is a function of your speed combined with the opposing wave period to give you an "interaction" period....

Further complicated in a sailboat by your angle tacking into the wave.

The critical interaction period is approximately your waterline length, as the boat has no time to recover before being hit by the next crest.

I have been in side by side conditions where a 65ft boat is going to windward quite happily, but a 200 ft ship is burying its bows.

Hull design, weight distribution and helmsmanship can minimize that critical period by changing the harmonics between large sets thru abrupt course changes to belly up to the wave, but you will know when you are in that critical phase and all you can do is minimize it

That’s interesting, and it makes sense.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Mark,

Sailing on the wind, close hauled, does not have to be "beating". With the sails adjusted properly, it is usually over-canvassing (sp?) that leads to pounding, and slamming. Yes, longer waterline boats tend to pound less, sometimes evening out the seas an amazing amount.

Using pinching up to slow down is a tactic we've used from time to time. It can make things more comfortable when you really want to reach a particular destination.

If the boat you eventually buy is not able to sail well to windward, it will limit you. Whether or not that is a problem for you is a different issue, and up to you to determine where the sweet spot is.

If you choose a boat with good windward capability it will make your cruising better, imho, because you have more destinations within your comfortable reach. Now, in trying to evaluate my opinion, here, understand that we always wanted boats that are fun to sail, and we often sail to windward. People who don't say cruisers don't, probably don't, themselves, but at least in our case, it is not so. However, we do pick and choose our times.



Ann

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, Mark,

Sailing on the wind, close hauled, does not have to be "beating". With the sails adjusted properly, it is usually over-canvassing (sp?) that leads to pounding, and slamming. Yes, longer waterline boats tend to pound less, sometimes evening out the seas an amazing amount.

Using pinching up to slow down is a tactic we've used from time to time. It can make things more comfortable when you really want to reach a particular destination.

If the boat you eventually buy is not able to sail well to windward, it will limit you. Whether or not that is a problem for you is a different issue, and up to you to determine where the sweet spot is.

If you choose a boat with good windward capability it will make your cruising better, imho, because you have more destinations within your comfortable reach. Now, in trying to evaluate my opinion, here, understand that we always wanted boats that are fun to sail, and we often sail to windward. People who don't say cruisers don't, probably don't, themselves, but at least in our case, it is not so. However, we do pick and choose our times.



Ann

That’s a great summary Ann

[mayberrybfd]

If I weren’t BEATING I would not know how to sail. Lolololo

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

First time I've heard Beneteaus described as "heavy displacement" boats! I think rather that it was a function of LWL, not displacement that made the ride more comfortable.

Jim

Depends on the Beneteau. I have an 86 Idylle 51. All up cruising weight is somewhere north of 40,000 lbs. I think that is pretty heavy.


Boat has a pretty nice ride.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, Mark,

If you choose a boat with good windward capability it will make your cruising better, imho, because you have more destinations within your comfortable reach. Now, in trying to evaluate my opinion, here, understand that we always wanted boats that are fun to sail, and we often sail to windward. People who don't say cruisers don't, probably don't, themselves, but at least in our case, it is not so. However, we do pick and choose our times.


Ann

One of the must haves when were looking for our blue water boat was that she had to sail well. Not interested in owning or being on a sea slug.