Length vs Beating, course vs pounding

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Depends on the Beneteau. I have an 86 Idylle 51. All up cruising weight is somewhere north of 40,000 lbs. I think that is pretty heavy.


Boat has a pretty nice ride.

The boat we were on was an Oceanis. The base weight was about 26000# as I remember, the max loaded design weight was about 38000.

It wasn't loaded heavy, other than water and fuel.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, Mark,

Sailing on the wind, close hauled, does not have to be "beating". With the sails adjusted properly, it is usually over-canvassing (sp?) that leads to pounding, and slamming. Yes, longer waterline boats tend to pound less, sometimes evening out the seas an amazing amount.

Using pinching up to slow down is a tactic we've used from time to time. It can make things more comfortable when you really want to reach a particular destination.

If the boat you eventually buy is not able to sail well to windward, it will limit you. Whether or not that is a problem for you is a different issue, and up to you to determine where the sweet spot is.

If you choose a boat with good windward capability it will make your cruising better, imho, because you have more destinations within your comfortable reach. Now, in trying to evaluate my opinion, here, understand that we always wanted boats that are fun to sail, and we often sail to windward. People who don't say cruisers don't, probably don't, themselves, but at least in our case, it is not so. However, we do pick and choose our times.



Ann

Maybe added as an afterthought, but that is the operable phrase. The OP mentioned the beat from the lower east coast to the Virgins, which I pointed out was 900 miles to weather into the teeth of the trades. Not something that I voluntarily care to do and most that do end up motoring large lortions of it..
As a cruiser with a performance boat I still say cruisers do a lot to avoid sailing to weather. Beating sux.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Beating sux.

Yes, the Name says it all.

One day. Two days most I'll consider a rough passage to Windward...
.... more than that and humility kicks in where I let mother nature know, she has me Beat and I make other plans.

Commercially, its a different story....you are being paid!

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Maybe added as an afterthought, but that is the operable phrase. The OP mentioned the beat from the lower east coast to the Virgins, which I pointed out was 900 miles to weather into the teeth of the trades. Not something that I voluntarily care to do and most that do end up motoring large lortions of it..
As a cruiser with a performance boat I still say cruisers do a lot to avoid sailing to weather. Beating sux.

Paul, I do get your point and I agree that there are real limits to the conditions we might or should choose to work our way upwind.

There are always competing concerns though, the couple I spoke of earlier need to be south of 10 degrees before hurricane season. It's a hard date imposed by their insurance company. I'm sure they will try to avoid the days when the trades are peaking because they appear to be able, well schooled, and conscientious sailors, I'm just as sure they are keeping their Tortola base as long as they can, because they aren't done exploring the BVIs yet.

With that said, one way or another, they are planning to beat east against the wind ahead of their deadline and they are just fine with doing that work and risk.

Their choice is the norm, as far as I can tell; it's not an exception. It is also a good bet that, like them, I will need to beat to weather at some point in less than perfect conditions.

My intent in starting this thread was not to encourage bad seamanship and poor choices, it is instead an attempt to get a bit of peer review on my recent experience and ideas.

Given that I will need to beat to weather at some point I'm trying to build a tool box that will help me make a less than perfect situation as comfortable, safe, and manageable as possible.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

Paul, I do get your point and I agree that there are real limits to the conditions we might or should choose to work our way upwind.

There are always competing concerns though, the couple I spoke of earlier need to be south of 10 degrees before hurricane season. It's a hard date imposed by their insurance company. I'm sure they will try to avoid the days when the trades are peaking because they appear to be able, well schooled, and conscientious sailors, I'm just as sure they are keeping their Tortola base as long as they can, because they aren't done exploring the BVIs yet.

With that said, one way or another, they are planning to beat east against the wind ahead of their deadline and they are just fine with doing that work and risk.

Their choice is the norm, as far as I can tell; it's not an exception. It is also a good bet that, like them, I will need to beat to weather at some point in less than perfect conditions.

My intent in starting this thread was not to encourage bad seamanship and poor choices, it is instead an attempt to get a bit of peer review on my recent experience and ideas.

Given that I will need to beat to weather at some point I'm trying to build a tool box that will help me make a less than perfect situation as comfortable, safe, and manageable as possible.

Beating from Virgin Gorda to St Martin or similar destination is just what you do to get from the Virgins to the Windwards. It's all of 75 miles. Then its beam tradewinds all the way south from there. That's totally different than trying to make 300 or 900 miles to weather.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, Mark,

Sailing on the wind, close hauled, does not have to be "beating". With the sails adjusted properly, it is usually over-canvassing (sp?) that leads to pounding, and slamming. Yes, longer waterline boats tend to pound less, sometimes evening out the seas an amazing amount.

Using pinching up to slow down is a tactic we've used from time to time. It can make things more comfortable when you really want to reach a particular destination.

If the boat you eventually buy is not able to sail well to windward, it will limit you. Whether or not that is a problem for you is a different issue, and up to you to determine where the sweet spot is.

If you choose a boat with good windward capability it will make your cruising better, imho, because you have more destinations within your comfortable reach. Now, in trying to evaluate my opinion, here, understand that we always wanted boats that are fun to sail, and we often sail to windward. People who don't say cruisers don't, probably don't, themselves, but at least in our case, it is not so. However, we do pick and choose our times.



Ann

As Bob Oram once said to me:

"A beachball will 'sail' downwind. It's the ability to sail upwind that makes it a sailing boat."

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

As Bob Oram once said to me:

"A beachball will 'sail' downwind. It's the ability to sail upwind that makes it a sailing boat."

During our instruction, the morning we came into Soper's hole, we passed from the north through the cut between Thatch Island and the western tip of Tortola.

Our tutor related a story about this cut that he attributed to Blackbeard (Edward Thatch or Edward Teach). Given the tradewinds there the cut is a one way pass for the typical heavy vessels of the time, which sailed a lot like a beachball with a rudder and sails, once one commits to a course through the pass, there was no turning about.

At the east end of Thatch Island a lookout was placed by the powers that were in charge at the time. Normally the lookout would watch for pirates and signal intending ships appropriately. Blackbeard would show up, then kill and replace the sentry, with a sentry of his own, who would then inappropriately single intending ships.

Being able to sail well to wind at will is, a blessing, not a curse.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Beating from Virgin Gorda to St Martin or similar destination is just what you do to get from the Virgins to the Windwards. It's all of 75 miles. Then its beam tradewinds all the way south from there. That's totally different than trying to make 300 or 900 miles to weather.

That's also just what you do to get to Tortola from Florida.

If one thinks it's important to get to any upwind destination via sailboat it's going to take some work.

Some advice I've gotten regarding buying a boat is going to Hawaii because people get a boat head there then abandon the rest of the trip because the downwind journey back is so daunting.

Getting to Tortola downwind is also generally a daunting venture.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

That's also just what you do to get to Tortola from Florida.

If one thinks it's important to get to any upwind destination via sailboat it's going to take some work.

Some advice I've gotten regarding buying a boat is going to Hawaii because people get a boat head there then abandon the rest of the trip because the downwind journey back is so daunting.

Getting to Tortola downwind is also generally a daunting venture.

To get from the US east coast to the Virgins thre are a number of paths. If you prefer to sail then you leave from the mid-Atlantic states and usually get a decent sail. See the Salty Dawg Rally as an example. If you leave from Florida you have 900 miles to weather. It is typically done by jumping through the Bahamas and, Turks and Caicos, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico in many short hops. A large portion of these are motoring, or as they like to say euphemisticly motor-sailing. That path isn't a lot different if you are in a trawler or a Bene.
I've done it both ways and to each his own.

You are obviously enthusiastic about sailing and a want preformance boat for offshore. You would most likely be a lot happier planning your vogage to take advantage of the winds rather than fight them. That is a large part of cruiser's passage planning. We motor when we have to, we beat when we have to and we pasage plan for good reaching and running conditions. Having a performance boat gives you more flexibility.

[Dave_S]

Is it just me........ I like sailing upwind. So long as the boats not bashing on top of the waves. I don't like downwind anywhere near as much.

To me upwind feels more like sailing and downwind feels more like that beach ball just bobbing around and then the foresail starts flapping around arhhhhhhhhhh !

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Is it just me........ I like sailing upwind. So long as the boats not bashing on top of the waves. I don't like downwind anywhere near as tmuch.

To me upwind feels more like sailing and downwind feels more like that beach ball just bobbing around and then the foresail starts flapping around arhhhhhhhhhh !

It's great fun when there are no seas. Something that never occurs in significant wind offshore - think the tradewinds blowing for months on end over a few thousand miles of sea. In those conditions it is crew fatiguing, gear breaking and new leak inducing. At least more so than it is romantic.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Is it just me........ I like sailing upwind. So long as the boats not bashing on top of the waves. I don't like downwind anywhere near as much.

To me upwind feels more like sailing and downwind feels more like that beach ball just bobbing around and then the foresail starts flapping around arhhhhhhhhhh !

I like going upwind too. Same caveat. That’s the inspiration for this thread. Having the skills to make the upwind journey as smooth as possible is important.

Originally Posted by Paul L

It's great fun when there are no seas. Something that never occurs in significant wind offshore - think the tradewinds blowing for months on end over a few thousand miles of sea. In those conditions it is crew fatiguing, gear breaking and new leak inducing. At least more so than it is romantic.

It’s not a romance thing for me Paul, it’s mostly practicality.

I’d like to see the Yucatán, Puerto Rico, and the DR, and all the Virgins, and some of the wife’s big goals are paces like Belize, the Bahamas, Loch Ness, France, and Greece. Given my location, Oregon, that probably means I’ll arrive in the Caribbean via Panama.

As you suggest we’ll probably Island hop but the odds are that we’ll get our fair share of working upwind to Tortola and the Bahamas and the windward.

An alternative is rounding the world the other way. That would probably add at least several, and possibly many years before arriving in the British Isles and a myriad of other risks.

Rounding the world “the wrong way” and putting up with a bit of upwind work is our least expensive option in terms of time.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

I like going upwind too. Same caveat. That’s the inspiration for this thread. Having the skills to make the upwind journey as smooth as possible is important.

It’s not a romance thing for me Paul, it’s mostly practicality.

I’d like to see the Yucatán, Puerto Rico, and the DR, and all the Virgins, and some of the wife’s big goals are paces like Belize, the Bahamas, Loch Ness, France, and Greece. Given my location, Oregon, that probably means I’ll arrive in the Caribbean via Panama.

As you suggest we’ll probably Island hop but the odds are that we’ll get our fair share of working upwind to Tortola and the Bahamas and the windward.

An alternative is rounding the world the other way. That would probably add at least several, and possibly many years before arriving in the British Isles and a myriad of other risks.

Rounding the world “the wrong way” and putting up with a bit of upwind work is our least expensive option in terms of time.

I'm sure you believe this last statement. I personally don't buy it. Seen too many tarnished dream boats sitting up for sale somewhere.

Since you mention a specific set of passages I'll comment on it. We left left Seattle, sailed down the coast to Panama, transited the Canal, sailed the San Blas, then up to the Caymens, around the Yucatan to Florida, up the east coast, offshore from the Chesapeake to the Virgins. You can plan all this with minimal beating.

But hay, go ahead, leave Panama in the "light" trades season and work your way to Grenada. See how long it takes, how much you motor, how much you break and how much you and crew enjoys it. To each their own.

[markbarendt]

Paul I understand that planning can minimize the beats and will heed your advice to a significant degree. Thanks for your input.

[peter loveridge]

gentlemen do not sail to windward, at least not in boats whose length in feet is less than their age