Length vs Beating, course vs pounding

[s/v Jedi]

Depending on model, the Bene 50 may even be a modified Bruce Farr design (coming from the Beneteau First 53f5) that was used for the Whitbread race, so not heavy displacement at all.

Main issue is the boat length. With 50' you get into the sweet spot (some 46-47 footers with long LWL just get in there as well)

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I think it will come down to wave period V's boat length. In most situations that you are likely to sail in, a longer boat will be more comfortable. It is possible that the swell could be large enough and the right/wrong wave period that a 40' boat was more comfortable than a 50' but that will be unusual.

Part of what I saw and alluded to above was that with some minor course adjustments I could make things more comfortable. Part of my thought was that changing the angle I attack the waves at a few degrees changes how the boat ‘sees’ the waves, falling off slightly stretches the period, heading up shortens the period.

That change can be done for any length boat.

[Tillsbury]

Absolutely it can. Very much depends on the period of the waves, how the fetch affects then, how any sea swell adds to it, and so on. A few degrees one way or the other if you're not racing can make all the difference to comfort and enable you to make dinner or a tired watch to get a decent sleep.

How a boat sails to windward in fresh conditions like you mention is a big part of the boat's comfort in my experience. Most boats sail fine from 60-150 degrees off the wind.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

Part of what I saw and alluded to above was that with some minor course adjustments I could make things more comfortable. Part of my thought was that changing the angle I attack the waves at a few degrees changes how the boat ‘sees’ the waves, falling off slightly stretches the period, heading up shortens the period.

That change can be done for any length boat.

Agreed, bear in mind if you change your angle you will change your VMG and introduce roll.

[svsonora]

I think displacement for the LWL ratio is more important than pure displacement, and so is hull design. A boat designed to plane and to be very lightweight for its size will never be as comfortable as say, a westsail 32. Even if shes a 60 footer.

I was coming out of cape charles last winter right after some nasty 50kt winds the night before. Next to me was a very big ocean racer (white rhino). One of those planing hull boats. We were alongside for a second before they got their sails up. My boat was definitely more comfortable. They were getting pounded at the 4-6 foot chesapeake bay chops.

[markbarendt]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Absolutely it can. Very much depends on the period of the waves, how the fetch affects then, how any sea swell adds to it, and so on. A few degrees one way or the other if you're not racing can make all the difference to comfort and enable you to make dinner or a tired watch to get a decent sleep.

How a boat sails to windward in fresh conditions like you mention is a big part of the boat's comfort in my experience. Most boats sail fine from 60-150 degrees off the wind.

Giggle.

The only racing I plan on, is on the little Catalina daysailers at the sailing club here local in PDX.

We did practice heaving to in similar conditions and I was quite pleased with the motion.

[TeddyDiver]

IMHO good pointing ability equals a lot of discomfort (depending some of the circumstances of course).

[Scubaseas]

I can say from experience my 32,000# 41' boat is a lot more comfortable going to weather than my 13000# 32' boat. Both are mono hulls. Weight is indeed a friend when motion comfort to windward is needed. Both are heavy boats but the bigger, relatively much heavier boat is a lot more comfortable in a seaway.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by markbarendt

A few weeks back my wife and I did our bare boat training practicals in the BVI's. (We passed.)

We were there on a Beneteau 50 and, late in the week, in the afternoon, we got to beat our way up the Sir Francis Drake channel from Soper's Hole to Norman Island against 25 gusting 35 and decent size waves and chop. We had reefed appropriately and were under the watchful eye of a competent instructor.

It was rough enough that the Catamaran in our flotilla needed some rigging maintenance and other boats (unrelated to our group) that arrived at Norman Island that afternoon had ripped their genoas to shreds.

My expectation leaving Spoer's Hole, given the Bene is not a classic blue water design, was that the ride was going to be rough; but it wasn't. (The guys on the Cat did complain.)

It was a pleasant surprise to find in fact that it was generally comfortable and easy to make the ride more comfortable, and drier, with very minor course adjustments.

Three ideas/possibilities seem to stick out here for me.

First, is that in general, a 50' boat may simply ride better than say a 35' or 40' boat.

Second, is that maybe that beating to windward, in general, gets a bad rap simply because we try to 'bite off' too much. What I'm getting at is that many stories of epic, uncomfortable beats, seem to be where people are obviously push to get 'a bit extra' out of their path or some other artificial constraint like wanting to keep land close.

Third, seems to be a testament to the comfort and durability of a mono as the sea state gets more challenging. While our buddies were licking their wounds we we took the dinghy to the beach.

Am I reading too much into this or are these ideas realities you've seen in the real world too?

Don't get too carried away thinking that LOA "alone" will give you the best COMFORT ride. I checked my database of over 4,000 sailboats for Beneteau's at about 50' and came up with the following COMFORT (equation taking LOA, LWL, Beam, and Displacement numbers) figures:

Beneteau Sense 50; 27.7
Beneteau Oceanis 50; 27.2
Beneteau First 50; 29.5
Beneteau 50; 30.3
Beneteau Oceanis 500; 24.7
Beneteau 510; 26.6

For comparison look at the following sample of other designs less than 50':

Valiant 40; 34.4
Tayana Vancouver 42; 43.7

With an acceptable range of 25-50 COMFORT rating, Beneteau 50s barely make the grade even with their longer length; don't count out shorter LOAs. Do your homework. Numbers don't lie.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[SteveSadler]

The longer the waterline the smaller the waves feel. Modern hull designs have finer entries and higher topsides, reducing pitching, and higher is drier. Extra beam carried farther aft allows more sail with less heel. Modern rigs point very high, very impressive VMG. I'll bet the cats all ran an engine or 2.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by StuM

> First, is that in general, a 50' boat may simply ride better than say a 35' or 40' boa

That's it in a nutshell.

It's called "seakindliness" and it's a measure that's a combination of hull shape, ballasting, reefing, perception and seamanship. So it's pretty hard to measure!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by MJH

Don't get too carried away thinking that LOA "alone" will give you the best COMFORT ride. I checked my database of over 4,000 sailboats for Beneteau's at about 50' and came up with the following COMFORT (equation taking LOA, LWL, Beam, and Displacement numbers) figures:

Beneteau Sense 50; 27.7
Beneteau Oceanis 50; 27.2
Beneteau First 50; 29.5
Beneteau 50; 30.3
Beneteau Oceanis 500; 24.7
Beneteau 510; 26.6

For comparison look at the following sample of other designs less than 50':

Valiant 40; 34.4
Tayana Vancouver 42; 43.7

With an acceptable range of 25-50 COMFORT rating, Beneteau 50s barely make the grade even with their longer length; don't count out shorter LOAs. Do your homework. Numbers don't lie.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Well numbers might not lie, but when associated with units they often do. Brewer, the developer of the comfort ratio, states that the Comfort Ratio is not useful in comparing different style boats.

This is a ratio that I dreamed up, tongue-in-cheek, as a measure of motion comfort but it has been widely accepted and, indeed, does provide a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type . Ted Brewer

I've owned 3 offshore cruising boats that I have cruised extensively offshore. The one with the highest comfort ratio was by far the least comfortable offshore.
Alberg 35...... cr36
J/37.............. cr21
Outbound44. cr31
Listed in the order that I preceive them as least to most comfort offshore.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

IMHO good pointing ability equals a lot of discomfort (depending some of the circumstances of course).

But good pointing ability gives you the option of bearing away for comfort. If you can make 35 degrees well, you can make 40-45 easier (or possibly 30 should you wish that motion). If the best you can do is 45 degrees, you have less room to play with to make the motion more comfortable while still making some progress in the direction you want.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

But good pointing ability gives you the option of bearing away for comfort. If you can make 35 degrees well, you can make 40-45 easier (or possibly 30 should you wish that motion). If the best you can do is 45 degrees, you have less room to play with to make the motion more comfortable while still making some progress in the direction you want.

Exactly, a close pointing boat cracked off 5 or 10 degs is far more comfortable in a seaway than a boat that doesn't point well hard on the wind.

[Tillsbury]

I had a mate in the uk who used to go on about how his old gaffer was comfortable sailing to windward. Of course, what he meant was that he couldn’t sail to windward at all, he just did what anyone else would call close reaching.