How big is too big?

[hellosailor]

Steve-
What breaks? Honestly? Anything that can. Rigging sometimes gets strained, fatigued, damaged from freeze cycling. I haven't done enough extended cruising to tell you how much of the time would have to be given over to maintenance. Unless you have varnished brightwork, in which case everyone calls that a full-time job in itself.<G>
Often it is something unseen, like a line and fitting mismatched and chafed or jammed a month later because of it. Or, internal halyards that saw through the spreader braces unseen because no one has dropped the mast to check inside it for ten years, and no one imagined that halyards could or would saw through steel.
I've seen a custom yacht come out of a fine yard with winches installed backwards, the self-tailers nonfunctional because the yard needed to hire temporary workers (the experienced ones are too expensive to keep on payroll when things are slow) and the "mechanic" who did the installation, just didn't know any better so he set up the portside to match the starboard--exactly.
Good yards will be better than fair yards, but the bottom line is that the master must be able to put eyes and hands (and sometimes less common things like magnaflux) on every part on board. You can't *assume* that anyone else has done that properly, and still have faith in it, unless you know them very personally. There's no FAA equivalent, and even if there were, we all know the FAA doesn't require safety unless there are "too many" deaths from a problem.

[Pblais]

I am asking you to give me feedback on boats that may well be unknown to you so the only thing I can ask is what breaks, stops working or never seems to work just right on any boat even well designed and built boats.

What I have seen and what people talk about seem to run the whole gambit of things. Little things tend to break a lot. Not things that shut you down but odd things. A water hose leaks, some little seal leaks on a hatch. Something chafes. Then things like tiny leaks elude the search sometimes a great long time. Friends that own expensive boats (1 million+) have just as many as others and spend proportionally more money. We have half dozen members at our yacht club that have such boats. They have all the problems the rest of use since they may have 4 times as much boat they could be built twice as good and still have twice as many.

The tiny leaks on large boats are common. In terms of quality they probably have percentage wise less leaks than smaller boats but more places where the percentages apply. General salt water related things don't show up in the first few years but suddenly start and seem never ending. A used boat starts out here at least. Things that you might expect to replace as regular maintenance you do and maybe long term items you plan do too but I find lots of little things sneak in from left field. A circuit board in the radar goes out. A wire comes loose (very common) or shorts. Could be any wire aboard. Sometimes the fix is something any one can do quickly but finding it becomes the problem.

I think the biggest problem are the things you don't expect. Problems then compound into other problems. Single mode failures are not usually severe. Sometimes one failure leads to another not always right away or linked in ways you can imagine. Something gets loose, someone slips, they grab the only thing available (it gets damaged) you temporarily repair it, then forget about it. Nothing alone means anything but together you have suddenly a personal injury, a loose sail, heavy weather to single hand a large boat plus a time bomb you built yourself because you really didn't have time for more extensive repairs.

There are limits to switching on the auto pilot and taking a nap or pulling over and anchoring for the night. You can't just stop and quit sometimes. You don't need a "build quality" problem for seroius disaster nor can automation solve many of the real problems you probably will have.

I don't accept the choice of taking everything you can or leave everything you don't need behind mostly because they both lead to the same point in their own ways. There are choices between what you need and what you want. You need a lot on a large boat. The percentages don't work in your favor as you add more stuff.

[johnrobot]

I agree with previous posts, renting a boat might be wise before buying. I have a Sundwind 26, but some day I will get myself a Bavaria, perhaps 35 feet.

Magnus

[Euro Cruiser]

Steve:

I have to say that, while this thread is long on entries and commentary, I have seen little evidence that you want to do more than talk about what you say you have an interest in. There have been specific boat brands mentioned, both power and sail. Which ones have you begun surveying (or at least visiting with a broker) and what are your opinions of them? The type of cruising to be doing, it has been pointed out, shapes the kind of boat one buys...or at least should. What are your plans and how have they influenced your preferences? There have been any number of pro's and con's on # of hulls, size of boat, hardware preferences, power sources and so on. You appear to enjoy the to 'n fro of the conceptual debates here...but perhaps it's time to log off the computer and dig in a bit. I'd like to hear about at least one day at sea and your impressions of both the boat and the experience.

Jack

[Capnlindy]

Jack,

You are correct I am tire kicking here and I won't be putting my hand on any of these boats for a while. I have looked at all the boats noted in this thread on the internet and from afar none of them jump out at me. I have considered power boats and some of the cat's look interesting but I still seem drawn to the boats built by shipyard in Europe primarily. Most of these boats are in the Med and I am most likely going to Croatia later this year, from there I may travel to look at some of these boats.

I am asking a lot of questions that may be redundant, I am sorry but I haven't found any answers using searches. The type of cruising would likely be the Med for a year or so and if that worked well, the Atlantic to the West Indies. From the Caribbean to the Panama Canal north to the PNW and Alaska. At that point who knows the south Pacific or South America. I am not all that keen on some parts of the world, I don't know if going around is that important to us.

The plan would be to move onto the boat full time and spend little in housing ashore. Using the boat as a base of operation and to sail from place to place. Time schedules would be based on weather and en route conditions more than a rigid time frame. We could stay in the Med for years, going north to the Baltic and back again.

I do know this; the boat I want is not something that likely has many peer's most of the boats I have liked were commissioned builds or one of a small group built by a yard. I have a few designers that I like Dubois, Holland, Hoek and, Frers. The number of boats in this group number in the few hundreds in total and the number shrinks considerably below 80'. There is nothing close to these boats in Marina Del Rey, Oxnard or, Long Beach. In fact on the West Coast there are only a few boats like these and they are not for charter or sail.

Steve

[Amac]

Originally Posted by CaptainK

S
Now the only you could beat all of that, mind you. Is to specially equip the boat with more wenches.

I dropped by West Marine the other day, but they were sold out of wenches and sadly, they had no plans to order in any new stock.

[Euro Cruiser]

Steve:

I believe you are trying to rely too heavily on the computer and the Web. With respect, I'd also suggest you are hearing mostly from second-hand sources on these BB's. Most posters may be experienced boaters and have a conceptual grasp for the issues but few had taken a boat more than a few thousand miles from homebase, and that's just not the league in which you are considering playing.

An example of how you are being held ignorant by relying too heavily on the Web is your statement that, for the designers you currently prefer, there are few samples of such boats on the West Coast. If you were to spend a little bit of time just between SF Bay and the SD area, selectively shopping brokers and then working with one or two of them face-to-face, I'm reasonably sure they would provide you with a bountiful set of WC choices which you could then get your hands on and justify having an opinion about. Shopping YachtWorld is just not reality given the depth of information you are seeking.

There are also a number of organizations with very experienced members that could and would help you with relevant information if you were to seek them out. The numerous West Coast Stations of the Cruising Club of America leap to mind. Some of the major WC Yacht Clubs will have many members with the kind experience to which you aspire - you could start with the St. Francis YC and SDYC.

I'll bow out for now. Good luck on the search...but really, shut down the computer and get busy out in that portion of the 'real world' where your dreams lie.

Jack

[Joli]

Lindy,

Well, at the risk (almost certain) of being called a liar for talking about the cost of a larger boat, here goes.

I think your questions are three fold. 1) Is a larger more expensive boat better built than a production boat? 2) What does it cost to maintain a larger boat? 3) How tough is it to handle a larger boat?

Question 1, in general a larger custom boat will be built to a higher quality level. Does this mean there will not be problems? Of course not, all boats have problems but better gear will outlast cheaper gear used used on most production boats. Tour all manner of boats, take your time, look at gear, and talk to owners of sistership to see how the boats have held up.

Question 2, Costs, this is the biggy. We own and sail an older custom 61' weighing 65k with a 93 foot airdraft, (4) 98 Harken electric 3 speeds, 2000 sq ft of sail, a 108 Westerbeke, roller furling, Glacier Bay fridge, Westerbeke Gen set, pressure water, WH Autopilot,...and on and on. We have done what we can to keep the boat simple but cold beer and hot showers do hold a certain appeal that we do not want to do without. We have re-fitted the boat extensively starting from through hulls and working up. All new through hulls, new engine/gen set/WH Autopilot/Awlgrip hull and deck, winches, bow thruster. We have brought the boat to "as new condition" as other here have done with their boats. New replacement is estimated at $2 million. We budget 1/2% of "new replacement cost" for annual maintenance. Sometimes over and sometimes under this number but it is a close. We have paid the refit bill so know pretty much to the penny what the costs are. PM me and I'll share numbers if you like.

Question 3. A larger boat is easier to sail but can be a challenge to dock, 24k is about the max weight you can manhandle (42-44 foot). You have to understand how to spring the boat off the dock. We have raced for years and moving up has not been much of a challenge as far as boat handling skills go. Learning new systems was tough but it sounds like you have a good handle on that.

We are going cruising and do not believe we will spend much time in marina's but will be comfortable none the less with a large platform to live on. We agree with the Daschews about buying old waterline and keeping the boat simple. Hence our decision to buy this type of boat.

I think JonD will back up what we say for re-fit and SG will back up what we say about sailing a larger boat.

Good luck,

Bryan

[Talbot]

I have stayed out of this discussion for a while, but feel like adding a few thoughts for you.

Lindy, from your list of likes etc I would like to draw your attention to the Halberg Rassy boats as I think they may strike a chord.
You also have briefly mentioned about catamarans. There are some good threads on the multihull section which should answer your queries, but briefly a cat is IMHO much more comfortable in bad weather , it sits better at anchor , it has more space , it sails upright , and has a good size cockpit , but its not so good to windward.

There has been a lot of different discussions about the merits of new technology, but there is one area that I am not enamoured of our progress. I will accept a cored superstructure as a means of strength/lightness, but I want a solid hull. A cored hull does not put up with point impacts. The result boat may be heavier, but I would willingly accept reduced speed for the extra safety.

[Capnlindy]

While some may be ambivalent about my questions and dubious of my level of experience, I have gained a great deal of insight from all of your posts. While you might not agree with my opinions and ideas, you expressed your reluctance with a glimpse of enlightenment. With the diverse array of boats, products and personalities it is clear there is no one answer that works for all. Many of you are content with the boats you have and feel that adding levels of complexity would hinder not help you in any meaningful way. I can appreciate your KISS philosophy. I don’t agree that the benefits are outweighed by the extra complexity in itself. A good deal of the issues raised was that a larger more complex boat would also be a maintenance nightmare. Not many have walked in these shoes and nobody came up to bat until the bottom of the ninth. “Joli” Brian I am all ears; I somehow do believe you and perhaps that is why I have been so relentless in my questioning. Please contact me, stevenlemberg@sbcglobal.net I can’t PM you.

I seem to have worn out my welcome to several so I won’t beat a dead horse. My objective here was not to offend or bait I came seeking knowledge. At the onset of this discussion I said that my plans were based on a time lime of a few years, I can’t drop everything and chase boats as some have suggested. I shall refrain from posting here, please feel free to contact me if you have any comments, suggestions or views you wish to express.

Steve

[Pblais]

We might disagree about some things that don't really matter much but you are always most welcome here. It is mostly about wanting to sail and we all agree about that. If you still want to sail, then please come back any time. If I did not really think so I could not be here myself.

[lilly]

You're joking right?
Let me quote 'Dale' in the movie 'The Castle' ----"Tell him he's dreamin".
You're living in a fantasy world my boy.
But thanks for the post.

[rtbates]

There are so many variables to your question I can't even begin. So I'll simply make a statement. You need to acquire enough experience so that you can answer that question yourself w/o any hesitation. Do as others have suggested and go charter a few boats and see what you think.

[rtbates]

Too big is larger than the biggest boat you can sail when ALL the electric, hydraulic systems have failed. They will some day. Don't go off thinking they won't.

[scarab]

Looking for a " Mercedes " kind of boat ?
Have a look at the Etap 46 DS ( ETAP USA )
This pretty 46 foot Belgian Sailing yacht ( styled by Stile Bertone ) is pretty much handmade and build to a incredible high standard.(ISO 9001)
It uses only the best materials ( Yanmar engines, Andersen Winches, Elvström Genesis sails, etc ) and is ...unsinkable.
A ready to sail around the world unit ( full option ) will cost you around $ 700.000.

Greetz,

Koen