Heeling!

[mako]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Did a workshop with Nigel Calder, God of Diesel Engine Mechanics and boat maintenance in general, and he made a point of having had great success with these:

Liquid-Filled Motionsickness Glasses https://www.lincolnsquareretailer.co...g&currency=USD

Wow those glasses are really dumb looking...

... I’m buying a pair for my wife - anything just to help her seasickness.

[Jim Cate]

Re the dinghy sailing bit: I too think this to be worth a big effort. Getting with a group of age cohort kids who mostly love the sailing may be the tool to spark their interest. And if they are at all competitive in nature, once the dinghy racing starts up they will likely become intensely interested in improving their skills.

IMO this is more important than changing boats to eliminate fear of heeling...

Jim

[Tillsbury]

The only thing I'd warn is that dinghies tip over at the drop of a hat (at least it seems that way until you realise what gybing is). This could easily confirm a fear of heeling in the larger boat if they don't realise that the enormous lump of lead makes the boat handle heeling in a completely different way.

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

The only thing I'd warn is that dinghies tip over at the drop of a hat (at least it seems that way until you realise what gybing is). This could easily confirm a fear of heeling in the larger boat if they don't realise that the enormous lump of lead makes the boat handle heeling in a completely different way.

This is where the education part comes in. Explain how it’s different and how it’s the same

Growing up my father was in the entertainment business, even as a young kid I could watch any move, even the most horrific ones, my dad explained the effects to me, even put a really good bullet wound to my head once, it was the reason the movies that my friends ether couldn’t watch, or would freak them out, would just make me laugh or I’d later ask my dad how they made the mans head explode.

You in the best situation will be their teacher, but at the very least you need to be a experienced guide on this path you wish to embark on.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Thank you! And yes, I don’t think it’s a trimming problem. It’s a problem with 5-10 degrees of heeling. And to take it one step further, it’s not a heeling problem either, but the heeling is the most obvious and easy trigger to the feelings that lead towards the nausea.

I actually saw the reverse one day when I started the engine and the one feeling a bit bad immediately started to feel better— no change in heeling or anything, sails still up but the engine was on.

OK, so if you are not heeling more than 10 degrees (you're measuring it, right, somehow?), then yes, that's a crew problem.


I've not heard of seasickness being triggered by heeling (as opposed to motion), but I don't know that much about it.



What if you keep people from going below when you're sailing and on a heel? Do your people get sick even in the cockpit?

[Nightsky]

Heeling over could be causing seasickness or it could be ANY boat motion. Getting your sea legs cures that. Some people get thei sea legs right away (my wife for example never experienced seasickness at all) and some never get their sea legs. Most people need a few consecutive days at sea to get them (me for example, I suffered through 3 or 4 days of misery before getting mine) and never suffered seasickness again. Light weather sailing might be your only option until all get used to the boat motion.

[SaylorMade]

I once took a somewhat older kid out sailing for the first time in his life, and he was a little anxious.
Before we went out, I took him to one of the boats on the hard and pointed at the keel and explained that it was solid lead (ok might have been a little lie) and weighed a couple of tons.
The sail went very well, and he later said that when we heeled over he thought about that lump of lead benath, and felt safe.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so if you are not heeling more than 10 degrees (you're measuring it, right, somehow?), then yes, that's a crew problem.

I've not heard of seasickness being triggered by heeling (as opposed to motion), but I don't know that much about it.

Yes, measuring both from the physical and electronic compasses. "10 degrees" was just an approximation, though, meaning "noticeable heel".

I think it's a function of a lot parameters, of course, heeling being just one of the ingredients. Wave motion is another. And I don't think it's the "slight heel" in itself that directly causes it, but rather it's a trigger maybe bringing other fears etc to the surface.

What if you keep people from going below when you're sailing and on a heel? Do your people get sick even in the cockpit?

They all take it differently. 3/4 are fine in the cockpit, 1/4 still gets sick. Fortunately for the 1/4, the pills seem to work quite well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, measuring both from the physical and electronic compasses. "10 degrees" was just an approximation, though, meaning "noticeable heel".

I suggest looking at precise, not approximate data, and making sure that you've got your sail trim sorted. Excess heeling from overtrimmed sails and/or too much sail up will make the boat feel unpleasant When you feel the boat struggling you will feel bad yourself.

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think it's a function of a lot parameters, of course, heeling being just one of the ingredients. Wave motion is another. And I don't think it's the "slight heel" in itself that directly causes it, but rather it's a trigger maybe bringing other fears etc to the surface.

An unhappy boat will make the crew anxious and uncomfortable.



If fear is involved, then that should be worked through as a matter of priority. It's simply no fun if someone is afraid.


You might want to try intentionally sailing with too LITTLE sail up. Take a reef or two, or sail on main alone. Go out in good weather. Do some short passages that way until everyone is feeling relaxed and comfortable.

[mglonnro]

I'm a bit overwhelmed by the number of replies! I've read them all carefully and here's a collective Thank You to you all!

And a summary of my own thoughts after reading them:

1) We've been in Klaipėda now for a few days, and the children seem thrilled with everything about our vacation (that's how the mind works, luckily). I just asked the one kid with the most seagoing problems whether he wanted to go sailing next summer, and his response was quick and happy: "Of course I want!"

2) The dinghy sailing recommendation-- a good one! We've thought about that a bit before also, but we'll certainly think harder about that now. It something that will happen at the earliest next spring, though (just checked when the beginner's courses starts).

3) About seasickness and the remedies. Thank you all for your suggestions! This and last summer we've tried various combinations of those, and what we've found out is that we all respond very differently, both to the motion at sea, as well as the remedies to seasickness. So far we haven't found any magic cure-it-all "silver bullets", but we'll keep trying and using all of your suggestions going forward.

4) We'll have to test a catamaran at some point, for sure! Also, I think a cat would be great in Finland

Our next sail is after a few days. Hopefully the force will be with us and we'll find all the sea legs we are missing on the way

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I suggest looking at precise, not approximate data, and making sure that you've got your sail trim sorted. Excess heeling from overtrimmed sails and/or too much sail up will make the boat feel unpleasant When you feel the boat struggling you will feel bad yourself.

Yes, I've looked at the precise heeling data (example pic below from last summer). I'm not recording any exact data points for "amount of seasickness" to correlate, however, but I kind of assume that you'd believe that I know when the boat is heeling just slightly, noticeably, but still enough for some motion discomfort

An unhappy boat will make the crew anxious and uncomfortable.

The boat has been 'unhappy', absolutely, for short whiles with too much sail area and too much wind, during gusts, etc, but I'm not talking about that, but rather about the slight heel that is a part of almost all sailing (except deep downwind). This is not something that's possible to solve with trimming, unless I trim away the sails altogether.

You might want to try intentionally sailing with too LITTLE sail up. Take a reef or two, or sail on main alone. Go out in good weather. Do some short passages that way until everyone is feeling relaxed and comfortable.

Yes! That's exactly what we've done. My slight feeling of despair (and one reason I wrote this post) was when I noticed that even in really good weather, the everso slight heeling of the boat immediately caused an adverse reaction for one of our dear children.

So, to repeat myself again: when I talked about heeling I wasn't talking about "rail in the water", but rather some slight offset from zero.

Here's a pic of "slight heeling" because it says more than a thousand words

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, I've looked at the precise heeling data (example pic below from last summer). I'm not recording any exact data points for "amount of seasickness" to correlate, however, but I kind of assume that you'd believe that I know when the boat is heeling just slightly, noticeably, but still enough for some motion discomfort

Fantastic data and fantastic GRAPHIC -- how did you do that?


That looks like way too much heeling to me. 7 hours over 20 degrees of heel, and up to 33 degrees? You should have 0 over 20 degrees and I guess (not knowing your boat, but guessing) nearly 0 over 15 degrees.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Fantastic data and fantastic GRAPHIC -- how did you do that?

Thanks!

The data is from my raspberry logs selected into 'buckets'. The visualization is done manually in powerpoint, I think

That looks like way too much heeling to me. 7 hours over 20 degrees of heel, and up to 33 degrees? You should have 0 over 20 degrees and I guess (not knowing your boat, but guessing) nearly 0 over 15 degrees.

Yes, that's the complet dataset from last summer and almost all of the "much heeling" is from our first 500nm delivery trip with no family present and trying to optimize for speed (as well as figuring out limits of overpowering).

[MicHughV]

some people are simply afraid of water or waves.....they can't swim or one or other reason....this will prompt anxiety which in turn will promote seasickness...

my wife is a classic example, first few trips were a nightmare for her, but she has since overcome this, but it takes time to overcome, and patience from you, the skipper !!

I've known several round-the-worlders that get seasick first few days out, but then settle in. You would think that these folks would be immune to getting seasick, but not always the case.

I've known some folks that can sail thru' a hurricane without a problem, but put them on a cruise ship and they get seasick. Different motion.

I've never suffered sea sickness, so can't really opine on it, but have been told, it is similar to being very drunk....a sensation I have experienced once....or maybe twice

...not very pleasant at all, so I can readily sympathize with those that suffer from motion induced instances.

[Lazerbrains]

I honestly don't understand how heeling makes one seasick. The only times I have been nauseaous is when I am motoring and subjected to waves without the boat locked into a solid heel. I suspect fear of heeling is more the cause of the "seasickness" than heeling, which is a much steadier motion than motoring.