Heeling!

[chris mac]

My wife always got sick on our mono. She hated the feeling of healing over. So we chartered a cat to see how we liked it.
The change was pretty dramatic. She told me, " I could live on this"
She still gets sea sick on passage or heavy swell and takes transderm v patches. For her these work the best.
The other option is to get the kids a sailing dingy. Let them practice in the Anchorage and learn the fundamentals of sailing in a fun way by playing. That will make the live aboard less intimidating, and they will understand and be less intimidated by the big boat.
Good luck

[MicHughV]

I think the problem here, is that kids having never sailed before, think the sensation of " heeling" is a prelude to " falling over"....
You have to make them understand that the boat is unlikely to heel more than about 15 degrees.....

I can remember my first sail on a small 20 footer on a lake and that thing started to heel over until the deck was almost awash....I was stunned that the skipper could remain so cool.... before...what seemed to my eye...an imminent dunking....but off course, everything was fine....but it took me a while to get comfortable with being heeled over like that...

as others have suggested....take an experienced sailor along....not so much for his/her sailing skills...but to demonstrate that heeling over is quite natural...when you see others relaxing, y'all will soon follow suit..

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't agree with the previous poster that heeling is determined by displacement. It's not. It's determined by hull form. Your boat should heel much less than older designs, and if it doesn't, then likely you have some sail trim problem.

Do you have a way to measure heel angle and rudder angle? Your instruments ( in the worst case, the pilot head) should give you rudder angle for sure. If you can't get heel angle from then, then you can buy a €20 mechanical inclinometer. You need this data to sail properly.

In moderate conditions, your boat should not heel more than 10 degrees (and less with the wind abaft the beam). Rudder angle should not exceed 5 or 6 degrees, maybe slightly more hard on the wind. If you are exceeding these parameters, then you either have too much sail up, or the sails are overtrimmed. Pay particular attention to the traveler, which should be all the way down once you are much off the wind, and beyond that you should some vang on and get the boom out to the proper angle. As someone above posted, overtrimmed maiinsail on a reach is a VERY common problem, and this will cause abnormal heeling and excessive weather helm, the latter of which will show itself in your rudder angle.

In stronger conditions, heel might go up to 15 degrees and rudder angle might touch 10, but if you can't keep those parameters under those values then you've either got trim problems or too much sail up. My boats absolute limit is 20 degrees of heel but I have narrower after sections than you. I believe on your boat 15 degrees will be at or near the limit.

Once you get that sorted, see how your family likes sailing. If they can't get used to the proper amount of heel, then you need a catamaran. Heeling is an inherent disadvantage of monos and perfectly reasonable reason to go to a cat. Note well, however, that although a cat will solve heeling, it might not improve sea sickness. On the contrary, cats have a twitchier motion that many sailors find MORE seasick-inducing than the motion of a mono. YMMV.

Thank you! And yes, I don’t think it’s a trimming problem. It’s a problem with 5-10 degrees of heeling. And to take it one step further, it’s not a heeling problem either, but the heeling is the most obvious and easy trigger to the feelings that lead towards the nausea.

I actually saw the reverse one day when I started the engine and the one feeling a bit bad immediately started to feel better— no change in heeling or anything, sails still up but the engine was on.

[IslandInfedel]

”Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.” – Marie Curie

Have them take the helm, better yet go take them out in a laser, teach them about capsize formula and some sailing basics, next go over what your boat can handle while being OK, go get the gunwales wet with your kid or wife at the helm, after they understand this, your normal sub 30 degree heel will be not be a problem, you need to replace the fear (ignorance) with confidence (knowledge).

This isn’t something you do with a purchase, it’s something you need to take the time to educate the on, if they are willing to learn.

[Telesail]

Have you tried reliefbands? https://www.reliefband.com They may seem like a gimmick but for some people they are transformative.

When we were commissioning our boat, the electronics tech who was calibrating the compasses would not go out in anything other than glassy flat seas. We were on a schedule so we tried him with a reliefband and, for the first time in years, he was not seasick while spending an hour below rolling around while we motored in circles until we completed the job.

Other times, with queasy guests, we have lent them a reliefband and given them a job on deck and problem solved. Not everyone can overcome seasickness but it is worth trying every option before giving up on the dream.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by chris mac

My wife always got sick on our mono. She hated the feeling of healing over. So we chartered a cat to see how we liked it.
The change was pretty dramatic. She told me, " I could live on this"
She still gets sea sick on passage or heavy swell and takes transderm v patches. For her these work the best.
The other option is to get the kids a sailing dingy. Let them practice in the Anchorage and learn the fundamentals of sailing in a fun way by playing. That will make the live aboard less intimidating, and they will understand and be less intimidated by the big boat.
Good luck

Thank you for this!

[bnork]

Try sailing with just the jib/genoa and no main. You'll be surprised how little you heel. The boat will be 30-40% slower, especially in lighter air, but if the kids are having fun and not sick, who cares!

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I am one of the fortunate ones who do not suffer much from seasickness. But I know folks who do. A friend's wife works in medical research and was originally trained as a pharmacist. She has tried all sorts of drugs and regimens. She can somewhat abate seasickness for a while, but after a few hours with any seaway whatsoever, she's toast. And they have a 52 foot power cat and avoid anything more than two footers like the plague (amazingly, you can do that in Florida). My thinking on seasickness has therefore evolved - many folks respond well to drugs. But not all. Too bad - she otherwise loves the lifestyle and is a real trooper about sucking up seasickness. But she really looks like dung after a couple hours of enduring seasickness.

Peter

I think too, that the seasickness topic is very interesting. Having watched the kids and my wife quite closely they all take it very differently. For one, the fear (of tilting, the noises, etc) is clearly a dominant cause for her starting to feel worse. For another, it's clearly very much movement/motion related-- he's obviously not fearing anything but suddenly the motions punch through somewhere and it gets to him.

Two of four kids aren't affected at all. For the two others I'd call it 'light' seasickness. A feeling of nausea, very seldom any vomiting. However light, of course, it takes all of the fun out of it instantly.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

For me it feels more like that in the age of the ipad and long working hours, at least _something_ should be a family activity. It doesn’t have to be this one, of course. Let’s see!

Well, winter sailing will always be singlehanding, since below a certain temperature interest wains. Personally, winter is better than summer at some temperature point.

As for family activities, yes, but only if it's fun. There is no moral imperative. There is no reason to believe a group will have the same interests and there is no benefit in forcing same.

And yes, lack of heel is part of why I have a cat. My wife gets motion sickness. But don't assume that will make them like sailing. She grew up with power boats and liked the water. It is just the sway that is trouble. And if the wind gets up the cat is still a problem. I avoid those days with my wife.

Is there any part of cruising they like? Perhaps they just don't like passages, so don't make any more than a few hours. Pick your weather. Maybe they like swimming and hanging out at anchor. Exploring new towns and gunkholing. And there is nothing wrong with motoring if that solves the problem.


As for the kids, sailing a big boat is BORING. Dinghies are fun. I downsized a few years ago and my daughter (now 25) likes it better. This boat (Corsair F-24) is fun. What she liked about the bigger boats was exploring and taking friends. She could sail, and she liked being underway OK, but sailing a big boat is BORING.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Well, winter sailing will always be singlehanding, since below a certain temperature interest wains. Personally, winter is better than summer at some temperature point.

Yes, I did some singlehanded sailing all spring before we thought it warm enough for the family to join. It was fun. I won't keep the boat to do just that, though.

As for family activities, yes, but only if it's fun. There is no moral imperative. There is no reason to believe a group will have the same interests and there is no benefit in forcing same.

I might disagree just a bit there, or maybe just add to it. In my own childhood 'family activities' was working together on our farm with my mother and some other people. It wasn't "only fun" all of the time, but still I feel it was great for a kid like me, to help me in growing up. I do believe it's good to have some adversity to overcome, but not too much, obviously. Fun for most of the time.

And yes, lack of heel is part of why I have a cat. My wife gets motion sickness. But don't assume that will make them like sailing. She grew up with power boats and liked the water. It is just the sway that is trouble. And if the wind gets up the cat is still a problem. I avoid those days with my wife.

Is there any part of cruising they like? Perhaps they just don't like passages, so don't make any more than a few hours. Pick your weather. Maybe they like swimming and hanging out at anchor. Exploring new towns and gunkholing. And there is nothing wrong with motoring if that solves the problem.

They all have slightly differing views on everything, but absolutely they like the sailing, and living on a sailboat. Both on the sea and when docked/anchored.

And when someone is seasick, equally inevitably it sucks all the fun out of that person until he/she isn't anymore.

I think a catamaran would be great. I don't think it will magically cure seasickness, so that's something we'll have to work on and think about before maybe some day acquiring one.
[/quote]

As for the kids, sailing a big boat is BORING. Dinghies are fun. I downsized a few years ago and my daughter (now 25) likes it better. This boat (Corsair F-24) is fun. What she liked about the bigger boats was exploring and taking friends. She could sail, and she liked being underway OK, but sailing a big boat is BORING.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by bnork

Try sailing with just the jib/genoa and no main. You'll be surprised how little you heel. The boat will be 30-40% slower, especially in lighter air, but if the kids are having fun and not sick, who cares!

Yes! This we have done! And you are right, and we will do more of it

EDIT: And just adding -- it really depends on a lot of factors, but sometimes going faster causes less of the slow waving motions, and this in part is better for the one kid who has been suffering the most.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Telesail

Have you tried reliefbands? https://www.reliefband.com They may seem like a gimmick but for some people they are transformative.

Yes, thank you! We have them. They helped a bit, but not all the way.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think too, that the seasickness topic is very interesting. Having watched the kids and my wife quite closely they all take it very differently. For one, the fear (of tilting, the noises, etc) is clearly a dominant cause for her starting to feel worse. For another, it's clearly very much movement/motion related-- he's obviously not fearing anything but suddenly the motions punch through somewhere and it gets to him.

Two of four kids aren't affected at all. For the two others I'd call it 'light' seasickness. A feeling of nausea, very seldom any vomiting. However light, of course, it takes all of the fun out of it instantly.

Yes, people do react differently. I have been susceptible to motion sickness all my life. For me, and for my husband, Jim, Stugeron works the best.

However, for the child who gets afraid before anything happens, that one may be tensing the muscles in their stomach. This is something that if I do it, will lead to throwing up. We had a guest with the problem once, and we had her sit on the downhill side of the boat, where her back was braced against the hull, and her side against the side of the cockpit, and look astern and consciously relax her tummy muscles. You can also have such a one helm, and use their legs to "even out the bumps" and keep their ears parallel to the horizon.

Get your kids involved in dinghy sailing program for a few weeks, their bodies will learn what to do, and the fun will displace some of the anxiety. For your wife, it is a long trial time, when one keeps experimenting with things to see what will work. For some people, eating candied ginger, or even making ginger tea from fresh ginger root helps. Lots of things help someone, the trick is finding what will work for her.

If she is interested in reading about it to understand it better, the USA's NASA published some very interesting information based on monitoring astronauts, and also jet fighter plane pilots. Google "Motion Sickness + NASA articles", that should get you there.

I think it is a combination of gaining more intellectual understanding, and learning some physical skills. And you and your good lady wife are going to have to find a way to make it fun for the children. I think they need to take turns doing helming, and sail trim, and also, in learning to play differently, bird watching, looking for marine mammals, deciding which side to pass the guy ahead, and telling you why. They'll be distracted from their discomfort: the worst thing to do is think about how awful you're feeling. The message that they can learn to control somewhat how their body is feeling is a real challenge to get through, but they can do it, easier than grownups.

I am not familiar with your sailing grounds, but if you can get them fishing (if they're not squeamish), that may also help.

Ann

[Brewgyver]

In the interest of getting the whole family into it, a catamaran may be your best solution. I would suggest chartering one as soon as possible, because if that DOES turn out to be the solution, you're going to want to make that change as soon as you can, and minimize your depreciation loss.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Yes, people do react differently. I have been susceptible to motion sickness all my life. For me, and for my husband, Jim, Stugeron works the best.

However, for the child who gets afraid before anything happens, that one may be tensing the muscles in their stomach. This is something that if I do it, will lead to throwing up. We had a guest with the problem once, and we had her sit on the downhill side of the boat, where her back was braced against the hull, and her side against the side of the cockpit, and look astern and consciously relax her tummy muscles. You can also have such a one helm, and use their legs to "even out the bumps" and keep their ears parallel to the horizon.

Get your kids involved in dinghy sailing program for a few weeks, their bodies will learn what to do, and the fun will displace some of the anxiety. For your wife, it is a long trial time, when one keeps experimenting with things to see what will work. For some people, eating candied ginger, or even making ginger tea from fresh ginger root helps. Lots of things help someone, the trick is finding what will work for her.

If she is interested in reading about it to understand it better, the USA's NASA published some very interesting information based on monitoring astronauts, and also jet fighter plane pilots. Google "Motion Sickness + NASA articles", that should get you there.

I think it is a combination of gaining more intellectual understanding, and learning some physical skills. And you and your good lady wife are going to have to find a way to make it fun for the children. I think they need to take turns doing helming, and sail trim, and also, in learning to play differently, bird watching, looking for marine mammals, deciding which side to pass the guy ahead, and telling you why. They'll be distracted from their discomfort: the worst thing to do is think about how awful you're feeling. The message that they can learn to control somewhat how their body is feeling is a real challenge to get through, but they can do it, easier than grownups.

I am not familiar with your sailing grounds, but if you can get them fishing (if they're not squeamish), that may also help.

Ann

Ann's suggestion of dinghy sailing for the kids is fantastic. Impossible to get seasick when you're busy trying to keep the mast above water and the keel below and everything seems to be fighting those efforts.