Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-07-2020, 00:10   #1
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 755
Images: 1
Angry Heeling!

Half way into our second ever family sailing vacation, I'm getting more and more upset with one of the absolute basic attributes of monohull sailing: being constantly more or less tilted over.

We've had some issues with seasickness (that we're actively trying to resolve), and heeling is one of the surest trigger to cause that. "Will we raise the sails?" one of our kids frequently asks, with slight fear in her eyes. "Can we turn on the engine?" the other pleads, wanting our home to get "normal" again.

Solutions:

1) Some people suggest some bigger monohulls heel less, but I don't really get that since the basical sailing physics remain the same. We just watched the first episode of Below Deck: Sailing Yachts, and their 177ft yacht seems to the same heeling induced discomfort that we have



2) Switch to a catamaran. I'm unsure whether this would fix anything, but I suppose it might. At least the kids are believers and think we should do that. It's something I'd really want to test (maybe by chartering) before committing to it. Anyone here had their seasickness cured by going mono -> multi?

3) Go everywhere by motor. I don't like this option. It would be cool with a solar power thing made by Silent Yachts, but with our sailboat -- a bit depressing.

4) Find out of way to cure seasickness. This would help a lot. We've tried a few different things and so far a brand of antihistamines (dramamine-like, I guess) have helped for all but one of the kids.

5) Stop sailing altogether. If we can't solve the seasickness thing, this is probably the easiest and least expensive solution. No sense in for too long a time.

Cheers to all and thank you in advance for any advice you might have.
__________________
nakedsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:18   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50 Bavaria
Posts: 1,774
Re: Heeling!

Wait, you bought a new 38' Hanse before finding out whether anyone liked sailing?

Ok, heeling is a thing, but shouldn't be a big thing. For a start, you'll only be heeling when you're going upwind (and usually only very close to the wind). At any other time you have the sails too hard on. In addition, if you're heeling uncomfortably then you probably have too much sail up. I took someone sailing last weekend, it was their first time ever, and we had to beat directly into 20kts of wind in the middle of winter. But I put a couple of reefs on before raising the main, and only put a little jib out, and we went along merrily with not much heel and 5-6 knots. We could have gone faster with more sail out, but we'd have been heeling like crazy and there's no point in making life uncomfortable.

For a new sailor, helming is the best way to avoid seasickness, particularly if they can do it from the high side (either with a tiller or if you have two wheels). Two wheels are particularly useful here as you can be in control with the other wheel if necessary.

Then as soon as you bear away, trim the sails on the soft side and the boat will sail perfectly level.
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:20   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50 Bavaria
Posts: 1,774
Re: Heeling!

For seasickness, check all the critical triggers. Hunger, cold, being down below, diesel smells, not seeing the horizon, tiredness, reading, having nothing to do all make it worse. Make sure they're on deck sailing the boat then they'll quickly improve. For harder passages, Stugeron is magic but you have to start it before setting off.
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:25   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50 Bavaria
Posts: 1,774
Re: Heeling!

Another solution that I suggest makes itself heard in between the lines is to try going sailing with an experienced skipper giving you a hand with trimming the boat. A good relaxed skipper of a boat with novice children on board will know how to sail the boat gently and in comfort, and his/her confidence should prevent comments such as worrying about whether you're going to raise the sails and asking to use the engine.

Without meaning to be unkind (but I appreciate with the risk of it), are you sure it's sailing they're scared of or is it sailing the way you do it they don't like?
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:43   #5
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 755
Images: 1
Re: Heeling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
Wait, you bought a new 38' Hanse before finding out whether anyone liked sailing?
Maybe! (Well, I knew I liked it )

Quote:
Ok, heeling is a thing, but shouldn't be a big thing. For a start, you'll only be heeling when you're going upwind (and usually only very close to the wind). At any other time you have the sails too hard on. In addition, if you're heeling uncomfortably then you probably have too much sail up.
Hmm. I think here's a heeling force component included over a lot of wind angles, so I don't really see it as you write it! Much more heel, obviously, going upwind with a big sail area, but some heeling for sure also when reaching. When I'm talking about heeling, I don't mean being 30 degrees over, but rather "more than zero". To some of the kids, the bar for 'uncomfortably' is set quite low. It's a psychological thing, of course.

Quote:
For a new sailor, helming is the best way to avoid seasickness, particularly if they can do it from the high side (either with a tiller or if you have two wheels). Two wheels are particularly useful here as you can be in control with the other wheel if necessary.
Yes
__________________
nakedsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:46   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 133
Re: Heeling!

The only yachts that heel less are heavy displacement, we had steel ketch that weighed 12 tons, it had long keel with cutaway forefoot. What happened in a strong gust the boat would start to heel then start to stand up when the gust was still blowing. It is only yacht I have sailed that didn't get the toe rail touching the water. We chartered yachts 2 or 3 times for 10 years and all of them got the toerail touching the water when there was a strong wind .
Michael Cobbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 00:50   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50 Bavaria
Posts: 1,774
Re: Heeling!

If you heel when reaching, why not just ease the sheets? Most people have them on way too hard when reaching anyway. Your boat is a more modern design than mine and the more boats become fat-bottomed (which is the way all design is going on production monos) they should heel less. Compared with an old-school boat design where the toerail is in the water
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 01:16   #8
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 755
Images: 1
Re: Heeling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
If you heel when reaching, why not just ease the sheets? Most people have them on way too hard when reaching anyway. Your boat is a more modern design than mine and the more boats become fat-bottomed (which is the way all design is going on production monos) they should heel less. Compared with an old-school boat design where the toerail is in the water
Yes, I do trim very conservatively (and reef very very early etc) with the children aboard! Also, our weather window is quite narrow, between enough wind to move the boat at all, and too much wind for being comfortable.

As to your previous comment about "my kind of sailing", there's certainly some truth to that.

I don't think it's so much in trimming the boat (I have done this myself for twenty years or so on my own boats, and also crewed on other boats learning from people more experienced people than I am ), but more in the choice of where to sail. We could have stayed just inside our own archipelago with (almost) no waves and very short distances from A to B, but everyone (kids included) wanted to go farther away new places with some offshore sailing necessary.

Seasickness (and the fear leading to it) is a complicated issue. Thank you for all of your suggestions! We've done a lot of those, but there were some new ones as well.

The root of all evil isn't necessarily heeling, but it's not an insignificant part of the deal either. It's funny, how screwing with our feeling of gravity-- even by a few degrees--, can make such a difference
__________________
nakedsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 01:18   #9
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 13,990
Images: 14
Re: Heeling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
For seasickness, check all the critical triggers. Hunger, cold, being down below, diesel smells, not seeing the horizon, tiredness, reading, having nothing to do all make it worse. Make sure they're on deck sailing the boat then they'll quickly improve. For harder passages, Stugeron is magic but you have to start it before setting off.
This ^^^^^ plus keep the kids busy on deck not down below on ipads. One steers, one trims the sails trying to increase the speed, one on look out with questions about which side to pass other vessels or rocks etc.

We use Stugeron too for the first couple of days after the winter lay up, just in case.

Pete
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 01:24   #10
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 755
Images: 1
Re: Heeling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
This ^^^^^ plus keep the kids busy on deck not down below on ipads. One steers, one trims the sails trying to increase the speed, one on look out with questions about which side to pass other vessels or rocks etc.

We use Stugeron too for the first couple of days after the winter lay up, just in case.

Pete
Tillsbury
Pete7
__________________
nakedsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 01:50   #11
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 755
Images: 1
Re: Heeling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Cobbe View Post
The only yachts that heel less are heavy displacement, we had steel ketch that weighed 12 tons, it had long keel with cutaway forefoot. What happened in a strong gust the boat would start to heel then start to stand up when the gust was still blowing. It is only yacht I have sailed that didn't get the toe rail touching the water. We chartered yachts 2 or 3 times for 10 years and all of them got the toerail touching the water when there was a strong wind .
Yes, it would indeed be nice to experience a heavier monohull! If there ever is a 'next boat', I'd like one that sails well in really light winds, however, so that's might be a problem for the heavy boat. Unless you have a good light wind sails
__________________
nakedsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 02:09   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Ensenada
Boat: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Posts: 1,003
Re: Heeling!

I am one of the fortunate ones who do not suffer much from seasickness. But I know folks who do. A friend's wife works in medical research and was originally trained as a pharmacist. She has tried all sorts of drugs and regimens. She can somewhat abate seasickness for a while, but after a few hours with any seaway whatsoever, she's toast. And they have a 52 foot power cat and avoid anything more than two footers like the plague (amazingly, you can do that in Florida). My thinking on seasickness has therefore evolved - many folks respond well to drugs. But not all. Too bad - she otherwise loves the lifestyle and is a real trooper about sucking up seasickness. But she really looks like dung after a couple hours of enduring seasickness.

Peter
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 02:12   #13
Registered User

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bayfield, Ontario
Boat: C+C Landfall 38
Posts: 216
Re: Heeling!

I get how the kids feel. I was one of those kids. For me, it was about knowledge and physics vs “ it doesn’t make any sense why this boat isn’t flipping over”. It still doesn’t make sense!! Intuitively, when the toe rail is in the water- it “ feels” like the boat is going to flip over. Once I realized that it’s only in rare instances that the boats actually DO flip over- I can talk myself down off the ledge.
When I took my sailing course, the captain showed us how he buried the mast even, and still- the little CS30 didn’t flip OVER!! Astounding, I thought!! Once he explained to me how boats are designed to actually NOT flip over, I relaxed.
I would suggest it’s not the lack of comfort of heeling that is the issue- it’s the fear that the boat will flip over.
I still don’t like heeling past 15 degrees- but I am not afraid the boat will flip over anymore-
LauraleeG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 04:03   #14
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Tasman 40' catamaran
Posts: 690
Re: Heeling!

you are right : heeling is a basic function of monohulls. you can minimise it, but not eliminate

you are also right : the solution is a catamaran. simple as that

been there...got the T-shirt...etc etc

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...parked on mooring at Yamba for a few weeks while we visit family in Newcastle & Sydney... maintaining social distancing !
chrisr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2020, 04:42   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 103
Re: Heeling!

I would first install tell tales in all the sails .Usually over sheeting is the problem of sailing on your ear.
FAST FRED is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What to Do when Heeling Too Much Newinthewater Seamanship & Boat Handling 56 20-08-2010 06:23
Effects of Heeling on Masthead Tricolor Triton318 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 02-08-2010 12:23
Motor Sailing and Heeling sailorboy1 General Sailing Forum 9 30-09-2009 13:10
Hunter 36 listing (as in heeling) and speed pete33458 Monohull Sailboats 9 24-04-2009 12:43
newbie has questions about heeling annqueue General Sailing Forum 39 28-03-2007 15:43

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.