Flag for the British crew member

[antwerpavp]

My friend from the UK is joining us for sailing in Turkey.

What national flag can we have on boat for him?

Is it a red ensign or should it be anything else?

[Franziska]

Hi.

The flag on the boat should be the flag of the nation where the boat is registered.
The nationality of the crew has nothing to do with it.

Or do you mean some sort of small courtesy flag?

[antwerpavp]

Yes, I mean the courtesy flag.

[ItDepends]

The "courtesy flag" is flown from the starboard spreaders and should be the national ensign of the country you are visiting.

https://www.flags.com/blog/your-guid...lag-etiquette/

The port spreader would be the appropriate location for a "house flag"

And, yes, at sea the red ensign is the appropriate flag of the UK.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by antwerpavp

Yes, I mean the courtesy flag.

No No No No!

The courtesy flag is the country you're visiting, to be courteous to that country by flying their flag, to not advertise to all the other boats in the anchorage which nationalities are represented by your crew or visitors.

That is nautical tradition and a show of respect for the country you are visiting. In some places, and rightfully so, they take offence if their flag is not flown and they could reprimand you and insist that your correct your faux pas.

And stop and think, the courtesy flag is not about you and your happy social life, it is about the fact that you have been freely allowed to sail your boat to a foreign country, which is a big deal, and you should show them the courtesy of flying their flag.

Respect for nautical traditions is less and less seen among cruisers who bought a boat and went cruising without any foreknowledge of the centuries of seafarers and traditions that have gone before them.

Learn to respect nautical traditions.

[Nekton73]

Indeed, you may wish to research this a bit more. In particular, the courtesy flag is not really courtesy, it's a legal requirement, although not always observed or enforced. Some countries are more strict than others though so it's worth just doing it imo. At minimum, you are showing respect and observing tradition which is appreciated by many, and you may avoid undue attention from officials/enforcement if you are seen to be observing the law vs ignoring it, whether intentionally or not.

Typically vessels do not fly flags that represent the nationalities of the crew on board unless for a special occasion (such as the start or end of a regatta, greeting another vessel, an honour parade), nor may it be advisable, but if you want to the port spreader is the place to do that.




Flag of origin: flown at the stern or on the backstay, from sunrise to sunset and always raised first and lowered last (if you want to be super technical).

"Courtesy" Flag of the country you are sailing in: Stbd spreader, 2nd up, 2nd last down, with Q flag below it if you haven't been cleared to land yet.

Signal Flags, House Flag, Club Burgees, Owner's Flag, etc: Port spreader, last up first down.



There are size requirements as well, but I'll leave that for you to dig into if you are so inclined.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Nekton73

Indeed, you may wish to research this a bit more. In particular, the courtesy flag is not really courtesy, it's a legal requirement, although not always observed or enforced. Some countries are more strict than others though so it's worth just doing it imo. At minimum, you are showing respect and observing tradition which is appreciated by many, and you may avoid undue attention from officials/enforcement if you are seen to be observing the law vs ignoring it, whether intentionally or not.

Typically vessels do not fly flags that represent the nationalities of the crew on board unless for a special occasion (such as the start or end of a regatta, greeting another vessel, an honour parade), nor may it be advisable, but if you want to the port spreader is the place to do that.




Flag of origin: flown at the stern or on the backstay, from sunrise to sunset and always raised first and lowered last (if you want to be super technical).

"Courtesy" Flag of the country you are sailing in: Stbd spreader, 2nd up, 2nd last down, with Q flag below it if you haven't been cleared to land yet.

Signal Flags, House Flag, Club Burgees, Owner's Flag, etc: Port spreader, last up first down.



There are size requirements as well, but I'll leave that for you to dig into if you are so inclined.

Good description, thanks.

I’m not sure about flying the courtesy flag together with the quarantine flag - my understanding is that you’re not yet cleared into the country so you don’t fly the courtesy flag. Quarantine flag as you enter the national waters. Once you’ve been cleared into the country (including health) then you lower the quarantine flag and hoist the courtesy flag.

Regarding the nationality flag(s) of the crew, they should be the land version. So for the UK it would be a Union Jack flag, while the courtesy flag (or registration flag of the vessel) would be the sea version, eg the red ensign. Some countries such as the US have only one official flag for land and sea (for recreational boats).

[ItDepends]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Respect for nautical traditions is less and less seen among cruisers who bought a boat and went cruising without any foreknowledge of the centuries of seafarers and traditions that have gone before them.

Learn to respect nautical traditions.

Good luck with that sisyphean task...

I appreciate that things like flag etiquette are esoteric and not always logical, but at least TRY. It's of course not helped by people who mistakenly claim it is a "legal" requirement. It's not, at least in most countries. But no matter. If you don't care to TRY to get it right, I see and I understand where you are coming from.

I can't understand why someone would post a question here when a google search for "nautical flag etiquette" would get them a better answer with less effort from a vetted source.

[Nekton73]

I am a bit rusty on my sea law references but I believe there's a UN convention regarding the right to board and inspect vessels that refuse to identify their state or are operating flagless, and countries are fully within their right to establish and enforce their own requirements within their territorial waters, which some do.



However, I don't mean to be argumentative, but instead to share info and help the OP, and if/when wrong appreciate correction such as the above that the Q flag should indeed be flown until you have been cleared into the country, at which point you can fly the appropriate flag of that country as a courtesy.

[goboatingnow]

It’s extremely common to use the port flag halyards to fly flags representing the nationality of the crew , especially guest crew.

Typically these are often regional flags , wales Scotland etc. hence the cross of st Geogre might be appropriate.

Failing that the standard union flag could be flown.

None of this should be confused with courtesy flags and ensigns.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Good description, thanks.

I’m not sure about flying the courtesy flag together with the quarantine flag - my understanding is that you’re not yet cleared into the country so you don’t fly the courtesy flag. Quarantine flag as you enter the national waters. Once you’ve been cleared into the country (including health) then you lower the quarantine flag and hoist the courtesy flag.

Regarding the nationality flag(s) of the crew, they should be the land version. So for the UK it would be a Union Jack flag, while the courtesy flag (or registration flag of the vessel) would be the sea version, eg the red ensign. Some countries such as the US have only one official flag for land and sea (for recreational boats).

I think you mean the Union flag , a Union Jack is a Union flag flown on a Jack staff.

These days the flying of Q flags is less rigorous,so my approach has always been to hoist the courtesy flag once inside territorial waters.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Nekton73

Indeed, you may wish to research this a bit more. In particular, the courtesy flag is not really courtesy, it's a legal requirement, although not always observed or enforced. Some countries are more strict than others though so it's worth just doing it imo. At minimum, you are showing respect and observing tradition which is appreciated by many, and you may avoid undue attention from officials/enforcement if you are seen to be observing the law vs ignoring it, whether intentionally or not.

Typically vessels do not fly flags that represent the nationalities of the crew on board unless for a special occasion (such as the start or end of a regatta, greeting another vessel, an honour parade), nor may it be advisable, but if you want to the port spreader is the place to do that.




Flag of origin: flown at the stern or on the backstay, from sunrise to sunset and always raised first and lowered last (if you want to be super technical).

"Courtesy" Flag of the country you are sailing in: Stbd spreader, 2nd up, 2nd last down, with Q flag below it if you haven't been cleared to land yet.

Signal Flags, House Flag, Club Burgees, Owner's Flag, etc: Port spreader, last up first down.



There are size requirements as well, but I'll leave that for you to dig into if you are so inclined.

There is no legal requirement to lower or hoist a national ensign at sunset or dawn. The rules for the national flag as it pertains to vessels are typically laid out in national legislation , in my case the Mercantile Marine Act 1955 lays out the conditions for wearing the national ensign. No mention Is made of lowering or raising etc.

In fact I only have to wear it going into foreign ports. I don’t have to wear it in domestic waters. Unless requested to do so.

“12.—(1) The proper national colours shall be hoisted on an Irish ship—

(a) on a signal being made to her by a ship of the Naval Service of the Defence Forces under the command of a commissioned officer of that Service, and

(b) on entering or leaving a port outside the State, and

(c) if the ship is of fifty tons gross tonnage or upwards, on entering or leaving a port in the State.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to a fishing boat duly entered in the fishing boat register and lettered and numbered in accordance with Part IV of the Act of 1894.

(3) Where there is a contravention of this section the master of the ship concerned shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction thereof, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.

“


I also fly a warranted defaced ensign of my sailing association

This is provided for

“(b) in the case of ships in respect of which a special flag is authorised by flag warrant under subsection (3) of this section, the proper national colours shall be the flag so authorised.

(2) The Minister may prescribe a flag to be worn in lieu of the national flag by State-owned ships or by specified classes of such ships.

(3) The Minister may, by flag warrant issued to any body of persons, authorise the members of the body to use a flag in lieu of the national colours
“


My sailing association holds the appropriate ministerial warranted granted in 1983 , it must be flown with the club burgee to indicate membership.

[goboatingnow]

As a result of the national rules , I wear my ensign 24/7

[Eric50]

[QUOTE=ItDepends;3680106]Good luck with that sisyphean task...

It's of course not helped by people who mistakenly claim it is a "legal" requirement. It's not, at least in most countries.

Sorry, it is legal, actually this is under international maritime law, raising courtesy flag as a precise meaning which is :

"I recognise the laws and rules of the country I am going in and will stick to them".

It has to be raised as soon as you enter the waters of the said country, before you reach shore.

Then, if it is the first time in the country, you need to raise the yellow "Q" flag (for quarantine) to call for custom clearance, none is allowed to go ashore before the formalities are performed. Once done, you remove the flag.

This is not tradition, there are codes and books about maritime flags meanings that have pretty big content (I will recommand to read them to see how much can be said with a very limited number of flags, I am wondering who has this knowledge nowaday in the navy forces and merchant ship ?) as this use to be the only way of communication to and from boats in the past.

Very exhaustive and complete.

[goboatingnow]

[QUOTE=Eric50;3684018]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

Good luck with that sisyphean task...



It's of course not helped by people who mistakenly claim it is a "legal" requirement. It's not, at least in most countries.



Sorry, it is legal, actually this is under international maritime law, raising courtesy flag as a precise meaning which is :



"I recognise the laws and rules of the country I am going in and will stick to them".



It has to be raised as soon as you enter the waters of the said country, before you reach shore.



Then, if it is the first time in the country, you need to raise the yellow "Q" flag (for quarantine) to call for custom clearance, none is allowed to go ashore before the formalities are performed. Once done, you remove the flag.



This is not tradition, there are codes and books about maritime flags meanings that have pretty big content (I will recommand to read them to see how much can be said with a very limited number of flags, I am wondering who has this knowledge nowaday in the navy forces and merchant ship ?) as this use to be the only way of communication to and from boats in the past.



Very exhaustive and complete.

Exhaustive complete and misinformed I’m afraid


The Q flag is not always a legal requirement and some ( many ) countries do not require it’s use. The clearing in rules and procedures will depend on that countries law.

Furthermore it’s nonsense to suggest you cannot go ashore until cleared in. Many countries expect the crew to present themselves at a relevant immigration office with their passports clearly you have to walk to the place. ( Antigua was like this) in many European countries you get notice to immigration who turn up later and stamp
You in , in the meantime you can sit in the local bar !

The origin of the Q flag had nothing to do with clearing in

As the courtesy flag. The RYA has this to say ( probably the worlds best known yacht association )

“There is no legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag; it is a courtesy that acknowledges that the vessel will respect the laws and sovereignty of that country.”

The courtesy flag therefore is raised upon entry into national waters ,should the Q flag be used it’s raised to request clearance and lowered once done so. The courtesy flag has nothing to do with clearance

Clearing into the U.K. does require use of the Q flag as it’s been in national legislation

“Fly the yellow ‘Q’ flag when you enter UK waters
For journeys that you must report, you must fly the yellow Q flag as soon as you enter UK waters (the 12-mile limit).


Make sure the flag can easily be seen and do not take it down until you’ve finished reporting to customs authorities.
If you do not comply you will be liable to a penalty.”


Note that this applies to journeys not necessary subject to immigration or clearing in, merely a requirement to report your arrival , you remove of after the report has been made. This is entirely different to crew clearance procedures

The takeaway is there is no worldwide standard approach. Some countries have specific legal rules others fo not. Those rules only differ from country to country ( the night time lowering of ensigns being a classic “ practice “ over “ law” confusion )

books especially US texts get all this wrong on a regular basis , mixing up custom and practice , etiquette, with the actual legal requirements