Flag for the British crew member

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And what I see on the Internet is that a Red Ensign is proper flag for a British vessel.

As for a flag to indicate the nationality of a crew member, which is a frivolous and silly habit and not in keeping with any nautical tradition as far as I am concerned, a small union flag (union jack) seems like it would be acceptable as would flags for Scotland, Wales, whatever. Dumb.

But not the english 'Cross of St George' which -sadly- has been taken over by the ratbag fringe. Soccer hooligans, 'little englanders', that sort of thing. Bit like the 'Eureka' flag in Australia which is associated with commo unionists.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LobeliaBlue

It is absolutely a legal requirement. The Port Capitan visited the Marina here last week and cited boats not flying a Mexican flag in the correct position.

It may or may not be depending on national law but largely it’s a “ courtesy “ not a requirement.

[LobeliaBlue]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It may or may not be depending on national law but largely it’s a “ courtesy “ not a requirement.

I'm not here to argue with local officialdom about what makes them happy.
Someone felt it was disrespectful, took umbrage, and sent minions.
cool cool.

It's hilarious to see Americans yammer about what the use of the Red Ensign is.

You don't even know it's called the Red Duster, colloquially.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by LobeliaBlue

I'm not here to argue with local officialdom about what makes them happy.
Someone felt it was disrespectful, took umbrage, and sent minions.
cool cool.

It's hilarious to see Americans yammer about what the use of the Red Ensign is.

You don't even know it's called the Red Duster, colloquially.

Who did that? Who yammered? How do you know whether or not someone on the forum knows what it is colloquially called?

[Happ]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

Good luck with that sisyphean task...

I appreciate that things like flag etiquette are esoteric and not always logical, but at least TRY. It's of course not helped by people who mistakenly claim it is a "legal" requirement. It's not, at least in most countries. But no matter. If you don't care to TRY to get it right, I see and I understand where you are coming from.

I can't understand why someone would post a question here when a google search for "nautical flag etiquette" would get them a better answer with less effort from a vetted source.

Thankfully someone is suggesting the use of a vetted source!

[CarinaPDX]

The courtesy flag is indeed required by some nations - as I have experienced first-hand. In one case fines were handed out if the flag wasn't flown when entering national waters (not to me - I had heard about it in advance), which is admittedly a bit dodgy as most of us buy the flag upon arrival as they can be hard to obtain in advance. Mostly it is not a problem but it is courteous to fly one and it is often noticed. The worst thing to do is to fly a courtesy flag that is damaged - if badly worn then replace it - don't be cheap!!! When I was in Marmaris, Turkey, the officials would come through the marina in the spring and cut down the damaged Turkish flags - and they were not happy. The whole point of the flag is to show respect and a tattered one does not do that.

I found the Scandinavians to be particularly sensitive to flag etiquette, or at least more willing to comment on it. In many places the local yacht clubs put on quite a show in the evening when lowering their flags. In one Norwegian city I had a local make a pointed remark that I should be lowering my flags at 9PM in the summer and hoisting them at 8AM, and not leaving them up all of the time. I responded that if I took them down at 9 then they would usually not be hoisted at 8 so leaving them up was a better solution; he was not amused. The point is that flag etiquette is noticed, is important to some people, and is often seen as a sign of respect. Making some effort in this regard is, if nothing else, a simple courtesy.

Personally I think that putting up extraneous flags is amateurish, or at least un-serious. The worst is to put up a pirate flag - why people think that is cute is beyond me. Having met cruisers that have been shot at (and in one case hit) by pirates I don't find anything humorous about it - more like childish. Most of the cruisers I know avoid crews with pirate flags. Obviously flying a crew's national flag is something different, but it has no basis in tradition (is it another "new tradition" - a great oxymoron?). It is harmless enough but I think there are better ways of making new crew feel welcome, which is the only benefit I see in it: nobody else will care that a Brit is a guest on a boat in Turkey.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

Norway has unlike some countries has rules for merchant ships wearing its ensign

“he flag regulations also describe the time of day when the flag should be hoisted and lowered. From March to October the flag should be hoisted from 08.00. From November to February it should be hoisted from 09.00. The flag is lowered at sunset, although no later than 21.00, even if sunset is later than that. In the northern counties of Nordland and Troms the flag is flown between 10.00 and 15.00 from November to February. These rules do not apply for private use of the flag, but they are generally observed by all citizens.”


As to what yacht clubs do that’s the type of stuffed shirt approach. I prefer to abide by national rules and not YC commodores. In my case I have repeatedly pointed out to my Irish YC commodore that we are not in the Union since 1922 and as a result time we put the archaic RN rules to bed. As a result I pointedly do not lower my national ensign .he has yet to counter my argument.

I should point out I owned two U.K. part 1 vessels and in that case I most definitely followed the RN rules for “ the duster “

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The courtesy flag is indeed required by some nations - as I have experienced first-hand. In one case fines were handed out if the flag wasn't flown when entering national waters (not to me - I had heard about it in advance), which is admittedly a bit dodgy as most of us buy the flag upon arrival as they can be hard to obtain in advance. Mostly it is not a problem but it is courteous to fly one and it is often noticed. The worst thing to do is to fly a courtesy flag that is damaged - if badly worn then replace it - don't be cheap!!! When I was in Marmaris, Turkey, the officials would come through the marina in the spring and cut down the damaged Turkish flags - and they were not happy. The whole point of the flag is to show respect and a tattered one does not do that.



I found the Scandinavians to be particularly sensitive to flag etiquette, or at least more willing to comment on it. In many places the local yacht clubs put on quite a show in the evening when lowering their flags. In one Norwegian city I had a local make a pointed remark that I should be lowering my flags at 9PM in the summer and hoisting them at 8AM, and not leaving them up all of the time. I responded that if I took them down at 9 then they would usually not be hoisted at 8 so leaving them up was a better solution; he was not amused. The point is that flag etiquette is noticed, is important to some people, and is often seen as a sign of respect. Making some effort in this regard is, if nothing else, a simple courtesy.



Personally I think that putting up extraneous flags is amateurish, or at least un-serious. The worst is to put up a pirate flag - why people think that is cute is beyond me. Having met cruisers that have been shot at (and in one case hit) by pirates I don't find anything humorous about it - more like childish. Most of the cruisers I know avoid crews with pirate flags. Obviously flying a crew's national flag is something different, but it has no basis in tradition (is it another "new tradition" - a great oxymoron?). It is harmless enough but I think there are better ways of making new crew feel welcome, which is the only benefit I see in it: nobody else will care that a Brit is a guest on a boat in Turkey.



Greg

Fully agree with your view on the pirates flag. But generally I accept the port flag halyard is a free for all

[Ike]

If you think this is confusing, you should look into the practice of "dipping" the flag. Dipping is the practice of lowering your flag half way when passing a ship of another nation as a sign of respect. The only time I have actually seen it done was when a merchant vessel passed the Coast Guard cutter I was on. Military vessels generally do not do this. But some countries don't do it at all.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Ike

If you think this is confusing, you should look into the practice of "dipping" the flag. Dipping is the practice of lowering your flag half way when passing a ship of another nation as a sign of respect. The only time I have actually seen it done was when a merchant vessel passed the Coast Guard cutter I was on. Military vessels generally do not do this. But some countries don't do it at all.

IIRC the U.S. ensign is never supposed to be dipped (as in lowering the flag as a form of salute), although other nations do this. The crew will line up on the deck and hand salute as they pass another U.S. ensign (I'm not sure about other nationalities). I once rode a U.S. frigate up the Columbia River from the mouth (off Astoria) to Portland, about 100 miles, as part of the Rose Festival. We passed other U.S. ships, most also heading to Portland, and saluted each U.S. ensign that we passed. When we approached a ship hands were called to the deck, then at attention and salute as the flag passed. That must get really old...

Greg

[Ike]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

IIRC the U.S. ensign is never supposed to be dipped (as in lowering the flag as a form of salute), although other nations do this. The crew will line up on the deck and hand salute as they pass another U.S. ensign (I'm not sure about other nationalities). I once rode a U.S. frigate up the Columbia River from the mouth (off Astoria) to Portland, about 100 miles, as part of the Rose Festival. We passed other U.S. ships, most also heading to Portland, and saluted each U.S. ensign that we passed. When we approached a ship hands were called to the deck, then at attention and salute as the flag passed. That must get really old...

Greg

Wow. I was on a Cutter who went to the Rose Festival, two years in a row. Small world. Yes. We occasionally manned the rail for passing Naval Vessels. Primarily at places like San Diego and Pearl. I think it's a nice custom, but it can get old quick.

[JAFO]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Bit like the 'Eureka' flag in Australia which is associated with commo unionists.

Not to worry.. right-wing fascist nutjobs are currently trying to claim the Eureka flag for their own. We "commie unionists" are less than happy about it.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by JAFO

Not to worry.. right-wing fascist nutjobs are currently trying to claim the Eureka flag for their own. We "commie unionists" are less than happy about it.

I apologize for the merkinisation of 'commie' in my post.

[JAFO]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I apologize for the merkinisation of 'commie' in my post.

No worries, mate!

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Ike

If you think this is confusing, you should look into the practice of "dipping" the flag. Dipping is the practice of lowering your flag half way when passing a ship of another nation as a sign of respect. The only time I have actually seen it done was when a merchant vessel passed the Coast Guard cutter I was on. Military vessels generally do not do this. But some countries don't do it at all.

I think that's quite a fun tradition. Beating back to The Netherlands after finishing the Round Britain & Ireland Yacht Race years (decades) ago, we dipped our Dutch ensign on passing a Dutch warship (indeed there are/were a couple). So not a ship of another nation, did not know that was part of the tradition, but anyway why not to your own people too?

The weather was absolutely horrible but they did dispatch a chap to the aft deck and returned the greeting. Gave us all a warm feeling as we sat there in the cockpit looking forward to drying out having experienced very damp & windy UK weather the previous 4 weeks.